God...Selfless or Selfish

245

Comments

  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Gray4lines:
    Vulchor:
    MY question, or perhaps statement is that I was thinking the other day how selfish god seems to be. Mainly, the Christian god, or Jesus fellow, whatever we want to say. I cannot imagine how someone would be received if their whole shtick was worship me, follow me, believe in me, dont question me, my way is always right, I deciide wright and wrong, ect. To get to heaven, as many people, all you have to do is accept this guy as your savior. So if you are rotten to other people, self centered, ect. thats ok---just believe in the holiness of this egomaniac? If this guy were around today we would call him a bully or a dictator.
    Just a couple quick points, just "believing" in Jesus as savior is not enough. He asks that you put everyhig else aside and follow him. Along those lines, anyone who truly believes and treasures Jesus Christ as their savior will not treat others in a poor way (of course we all make mistakes) ... a good bible quote for this is: "faith without good works is dead.". So it shouldn't be thought of as an empty proclamation.

    . Also, to touch on God's "egomania": think of this, if you will... this is a hypothetical, of course. God says "yeah, I was being selfish. You shouldn't worship me... that's a little extreme, let's give credit where its due and worship (whatever) a little too."

    Whatever can be anything, anyone, doesn't matter. If God...the one God of the universe and supreme ruler (we are talking about the Christian God) were to conceed that something other than he was worthy of worship and such reverence, wouldnt that completely undermine his supremacy, and thus his very name.. by the very nature that defines who God is, he has to hold nothing, not one thing, as more important than himself. If he did, than THAT thing would be "God".

    Good (and hard) questions, dude. I think it really helps to be able to ask and think about things like this. You know better what you believe, and why. I almost didn't answer, (at work lol!) And also I didn't want to steer anyone wrong. But I hope what I said, I said it clearly. ...and wasn't boring,haha.
    Thanks for the thoughful response man. I understand the ida of following and putting everything aside, I just try to imagine if Jesus were around today and we had a guy saying this stuff----we would either put him in the loony bin or take out his compound in the mountains. I agree that being what god or Jesus alledly is, he has to be worshipped and #1 or else the whole thing would be for nothing. I just cannot think or anything or anyone else demanding so much...of course if there is a god, there isnt anyone with more power to ask for such a thing I guess.
    You got it. It's so hard to even wrap my head around who God is. Let alone understand the how and why. And you are right, you know, Jesus was hung on a cross as a criminal for saying what he did. So the response today wouldn't be much different. Thanks, man
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    xmacro:
    laker1963:


    You refer here to things which people at some website believe or declare as though Vulchor said them or believed them. That is totally unfair and that is the personal part of your post you should leave alone. If you don't agree with someone great, disagree. Why go after them like you did Vulchor. He stated an opinion about a group not an individual. I know you can see the difference Macro. C'mon man just try to leave the personal poison out of these discussions. You make some good points but they always get lost in the attacks, so your point never really gets any serious consideration. Just sayin'.
    I get what you're saying, but it's not just "some website" - it's every single atheist forum discussion of this kind - all of them. You can find this topic from the Daily Kos to Reddit Atheism, from Daily Beast to 4chan. Start out with "I want to understand why God is a piece of **** - please keep discussion reasonable" - and then feign surprise when people get angry.

    It's the incendiary language of the original post that poisons any conversation that follows and shows that "understanding" isn't the point of the post, it's to score cheap points. Someone who wants to understand, whether it's a religion or how a carburetor works, doesn't begin with an attack calling the thing they're trying to understand a piece of **** unless they're making a statement instead of a question.
    YOu gotta understand Vulchor. He does this to get a rise out of people.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,769 ✭✭✭
    Again Beat, and I hate to keep saying this over the last 2 days, but your statement is not correct.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,736 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now here is an exceedingly interesting question for subject!

    Let me start by saying that I believe, no, know that God is.

    Also, I went through a period in my life when I was not sure of God's existence, but felt pretty strongly that if indeed He did exist, I was not to happy with him. In fact, I was furious with what I saw in the world around me, and felt strongly that if God was in charge, he was doing a crappy job of it.

    I was wrong.

    I'm going to try and respond to this at some length on Friday, if my week doesn't get away from me, I don't have time today, and won't have time tomorrow. Maybe should have kept shut until then, but this is very important to me.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  
  • laker1963laker1963 Posts: 5,046
    Amos Umwhat:
    Now here is an exceedingly interesting question for subject!

    Let me start by saying that I believe, no, know that God is.

    Also, I went through a period in my life when I was not sure of God's existence, but felt pretty strongly that if indeed He did exist, I was not to happy with him. In fact, I was furious with what I saw in the world around me, and felt strongly that if God was in charge, he was doing a crappy job of it.

    I was wrong.

    I'm going to try and respond to this at some length on Friday, if my week doesn't get away from me, I don't have time today, and won't have time tomorrow. Maybe should have kept shut until then, but this is very important to me.
    I for one, will be VERY interested in your thoughts on this Steve. You have an insightful way of putting things, that I would like to say into words. I tend to be thinking three lines ahead of what I write and end up with something quite short of what I was shooting for. I think this thread may still be in full swing on Friday. LOL
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Vulchor:
    Again Beat, and I hate to keep saying this over the last 2 days, but your statement is not correct.
    Then you really are that ignorant about Jesus?
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,769 ✭✭✭
    I know Jesus was PROBABLY a historical figure. Much more than this I am not sure. I have read stories saying he could walk on water, had 12 followers, was cruicified, ressurected, born of a virgin, 3 wise men after the birth, ect. They seem like very entertaining stories, though they all seem to be copied or tweaked about gods from prior times or other areas such as Horus, Attis, Krishna, and Mithra.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    Vulchor:
    I know Jesus was PROBABLY a historical figure. Much more than this I am not sure. I have read stories saying he could walk on water, had 12 followers, was cruicified, ressurected, born of a virgin, 3 wise men after the birth, ect. They seem like very entertaining stories, though they all seem to be copied or tweaked about gods from prior times or other areas such as Horus, Attis, Krishna, and Mithra.
    Well there were others around Jesus's time as well. He wasn't the only one doing "miracles". One thing my wife and I always argue about, Jesus might have been a real guy, it's the other stuff that has no proof. I mean at a time we thought we had to appease the sky god and the weather god. Times change. Also who is to say that Jesus wasn't some extraterrestrial who was being used to control people... yes it may sound far fetched but technology is only magic to those who are not technologically educated/advanced.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,769 ✭✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    Vulchor:
    I know Jesus was PROBABLY a historical figure. Much more than this I am not sure. I have read stories saying he could walk on water, had 12 followers, was cruicified, ressurected, born of a virgin, 3 wise men after the birth, ect. They seem like very entertaining stories, though they all seem to be copied or tweaked about gods from prior times or other areas such as Horus, Attis, Krishna, and Mithra.
    Well there were others around Jesus's time as well. He wasn't the only one doing "miracles". One thing my wife and I always argue about, Jesus might have been a real guy, it's the other stuff that has no proof. I mean at a time we thought we had to appease the sky god and the weather god. Times change. Also who is to say that Jesus wasn't some extraterrestrial who was being used to control people... yes it may sound far fetched but technology is only magic to those who are not technologically educated/advanced.
    Thats why I said PROBABLY Pheebs. I see what your saying, and Im with you...I cannot say with certainty he was even one single historical person. And, being married to a woman who believes we humans were seeded here on earth by aliens (or at least 90% of her believes it), its nice to hear others have wierd conversations as well.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I know Jesus was PROBABLY a historical figure. Much more than this I am not sure. I have read stories saying he could walk on water, had 12 followers, was cruicified, ressurected, born of a virgin, 3 wise men after the birth, ect. They seem like very entertaining stories, though they all seem to be copied or tweaked about gods from prior times or other areas such as Horus, Attis, Krishna, and Mithra.
    Couple things, 12 apostles... there were many more disciples following him from place to place. 3 wise men is apocryphal... We know there were 3 gifts, don't know how many sages actually came, most likely many more than 3. As far as your point on other gods...someone has watched Zeitgeist. While interesting, the similarities are pretty weak most places. Here is more indepth look than I can provide.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    beatnic:
    Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water).



    Blessed is the Hair for it shall clog my drain? I am not looking forward to this.
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
  • wwesternwwestern Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    being married to a woman who believes we humans were seeded here on earth by aliens (or at least 90% of her believes it), its nice to hear others have wierd conversations as well.
    Always wondered what type of women would put up with your *** Dave!

    Not sure why you started this fire my friend but I'll heap a log ontop.

    Who cares what one and other believes? As long as you're treating your fellow man well does it really matter under what monachre you do it? If there is a god and I am always very confused about this, surely this is all it takes IMO is treating each other well.

    Why does the church's "god" always need so much money to buy fancy ***?! No thanks I'll keep donating to clear and open charities so I know my money isn't going to something I don't agree with. My wife's church has $20,000+ in lawn furniture, how is that helping your fellow man? Sometimes we got caught up in what everyone else is doing and go along with it full force only to realise later that corruption is in play.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jthanatos:
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
    +1 Jesus was here once and will come only once more. The first time a sacrificial lamb, the next a lion. I would also say he was foremost a savior, not a teacher. Anything else that claims to be Jesus is not a part of Christianity, nor God. I'm with J on that.
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    jthanatos:
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
    I didn't say that. I agree he is the Son of God. I think I called him the Christ? I was trying to get past the many stories and misconceptions and the like, true and untrue, about particulars here and there, and trying to get to his message of love. Sorry you didn't like my approach. I'm not inclined to quote scriptures from the bible, it having been translated and re-written many times. By men. Perhaps that's why Jesus spoke in simple Parables!
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    Gray4lines:
    jthanatos:
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
    +1 Jesus was here once and will come only once more. The first time a sacrificial lamb, the next a lion. I would also say he was foremost a savior, not a teacher. Anything else that claims to be Jesus is not a part of Christianity, nor God. I'm with J on that.
    Wow, you guys are kinda strict on that.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    beatnic:
    Gray4lines:
    jthanatos:
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
    +1 Jesus was here once and will come only once more. The first time a sacrificial lamb, the next a lion. I would also say he was foremost a savior, not a teacher. Anything else that claims to be Jesus is not a part of Christianity, nor God. I'm with J on that.
    Wow, you guys are kinda strict on that.
    . It's a belief that the Bible is the authoritative source on Christianity, and God. God breathed every word into it, and it's what he chose to reveal about himself. There are numerous references in the bible where God says his "word" is sufficient. I would argue that if your (not you in specific) view of the Christian God is not wholly Biblically based , then it is not really the Christian God. It's an interesting topic
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    beatnic:
    jthanatos:
    phobicsquirrel:
    beatnic:
    And of course everyone here is missing the point. Who he was (Jesus? Jeshua?), what he was (ghost, alien man, man/god), when he was, where he was, are all ancillary to the message. Foremost, as I mentioned in my first post, he was a teacher. And he was teaching us (humans) how to live a moral life to the fullest here on earth. He spoke in very simple terms and used parables to teach moral lessons (the mustard seed, the prodigal son, the unjust judge, marriage feast, etc.). He tried to teach us love. How to treat each other (as if they were Jesus). An egomaniac he was not.
    And yes, several incarnations of the "Christ" have been written about in ancient scripture. I believe them to be true also. But it shouldn't lessen the impact Jesus has had on this planet. Hey Vulch, did you know that these incarnations happen approximately every 2,500 years, or so? And that they somewhat follow the zodiac? We're due for a change soon. Jesus even said that one day his influences would fade and that it would be recognized when another figure appears. I think the phrasing was along the lines of "another will come and offer you water. Take it." In relation to the stars, we are presently in the age of Pisces (fish). What was the symbol for Jesus? A fish. Within the next 20 - 50 years we will move into the age of Aquarius (water). As to the Religions of the present day? They are controlled by mere men. But that's no reason to dis the underlying meaning.
    Nicely put.
    I really can't get behind any of this. Jesus was pretty clear He is the Son of God. The Christ. His parables are about the Kingdom of Heaven, heck many of them start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like...". While He did talk about loving your neighbor and keeping His commandments, He also warned against laying up earthly treasures. Also, yes, He talked about those to follow. Once, he talks about sending a HelperComforter in the Holy Spirit. He also talks about the coming of many false prophets who would seek to pervert His teachings. He speaks of his own return, both in the Gospel and also in the Revalation to John. And, yes, who He was is important, if He spoke untruth in being the Son of God, it would errode the foundation His authority is based on.
    I didn't say that. I agree he is the Son of God. I think I called him the Christ? I was trying to get past the many stories and misconceptions and the like, true and untrue, about particulars here and there, and trying to get to his message of love. Sorry you didn't like my approach. I'm not inclined to quote scriptures from the bible, it having been translated and re-written many times. By men. Perhaps that's why Jesus spoke in simple Parables!
    I actually had the same thoughts about the fallibleness of men doing the transcription until I researched how it was done. Basically, it was triple blind checked in a variety of ways that make current editorial work look like a sloppy 6th grader (no offense if any of you are still working through 6th grade, fractions are tough). I will say the translations are a little trickier as Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic are kinda hard to turn to English. I will post more on this stuff later... mostly cause I think it is really cool.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,769 ✭✭✭
    I have questions ny time people writing about these stories of this teacher wrote the stories so many years after the fact...not to mention the dozens of other teachers going around at that time using the same stories. However, I read someone mentioned Zeigeist (sp?) which I had no idea what it was....but now having read about it on wikipedia I think I need to check it out on netflix.
  • RBeckomRBeckom Home or out and about somewhere.Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭
    I believe and that is good enough for me.
    But for some this is not enough and we have to understand and except they're journey to the truth.
    Several good points have been raised and answered here.
    All together this is a great thread.
    Religion is personal and we all have to find our own way even if it means we have to question why.
    Keep sharing and learning from each other, only then will we be enlightened!
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    I have questions ny time people writing about these stories of this teacher wrote the stories so many years after the fact...not to mention the dozens of other teachers going around at that time using the same stories. However, I read someone mentioned Zeigeist (sp?) which I had no idea what it was....but now having read about it on wikipedia I think I need to check it out on netflix.
    Watch zeitgeist...but definitely research their facts afterwards, many are very poorly sourced and reasoned. That link I posted previously discusses most of it. I am not sure what you mean by "so many years after the fact". Revelation would be the book most far removed from Jesus' life, but still would have been written no more than 80-100 years after His death. Most of the Gospel would have been written around 20-40 years after His death, depending on the author. Also, there are Pagan's who have written regarding events that correlate with biblical evidence. Finally, much of the "oldest copies" of manuscripts we have for the Gospel date much closer to the time of Christ than do many other generally accepted political figures. There is a pretty good video series on this (I say pretty good because they sometimes devolve into intellectual dishonesty) that deals with weighing what evidence for Jesus would be allowed in court. I will try to find it.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    I am a follower of Yeshua the Messiah. We cannot define who he is in our own terms if he is who he claimed (God in the flesh). I have spent my adult life studying the scriptures within my Church's dogma and independently because quite frankly some of what is taught does not pass the scrutiny of the scripture itself. I have read the entire book many times and I am always amazed at how little/how much I can actually comprehend and how complex it can be. If you do not believe it, well and good, nothing I can say would ever convince you. It is afterall a book about faith in which it uses this definition: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If it cannot be seen then without faith you absolutely cannot and will not accept any of it. I have read enough to understand through that faiith that no mortals could have created it and accept the Textus Receptus as indeed the very word of God (YHWH). Once I came to that conclusion the book came to life and it changed who I am. As for Yeshua (His proper name) he is depicted in the scripture as the most humble of all persons to those who genuinely seek to learn from him and fiercely condemned those who claimed to be YHWH's (God's) representatives on earth yet only served themselves. I will refrain from quoting scripture or discussing Biblical principles as it has no value in this setting.
  • 0patience0patience Oregon CoastPosts: 8,720 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is all dependent on your personal beliefs.

    As native american, there is the "Creator", "Great Spirit", "One Who Lives Above", "Great Chief Above" or "Talapas". Depending on which tribe. But most refer to the creator as the "Great Spirit".

    The Great Spirit does not command worship as such, but a way of life to honor, respect and care for all around you.

    It is far more than that, but basically, it is what it amounts to.

    My grandfather told me there were 7 laws from the creator. Whites have 10 commandments. Which are similar, but different. These are paraphrased as I remember them and sometimes translation may change a bit of the "proper" wording.

    Respect your elders. (That's working well, isn't it?)
    Protect nature and it's beings.
    Judge with compassion.
    Moderation in everything. (I chuckle on this one)
    Be fair, fight fair, play fair.
    Speak with honor. Your word is sacred.
    Respect difference. (meaning different people's race, creed or appearance).

    Regardless of your beliefs, they are your's and that should be respected.
    There is no crisis that a good cigar can't cure.
    In Fumo Pax
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.

    Wylaff said:
    Atmospheric pressure and crap.
  • jsnakejsnake Kansas CityPosts: 5,792 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I always want to say something when I see conversations like these but I often wonder if I will find the right words. Maybe not the right words to convince you to believe what I believe but maybe the right words to not completely turn you off or harden your heart further towards God.

    God isn't selfish. Say we all agreed in God and that he did everything the Bible says. The world as we know it and everything in it was created by him and exists because of him. Therefor he is worthy of our praise. Had things gone as God originally intended we would all still be living in paradise but he gave man free will and man screwed up. This could go much deeper but I will move on to my next point.

    The problem with Christianity today is religion. Not the belief in God and Jesus but religion itself. How many wars, deaths, tortures, murders, enslavements, horrors, and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion? All through history and up to present day it is all there. Horrible acts committed in the name of God by various religions. No wonder people turn away and harden their hearts. Religion is ruining relationships with God. You don't have to go to church on a specific day or give your money to a pastor to have a relationship with God. It is all about your personal relationship with God and if you believe in his son Jesus Christ and that he died for all of our sins. God doesn't care what you wear to worship him but some churches would turn you away for not dressing properly on Sunday morning. Do you think God will cast people aside because they didn't attend church service or put money in an envelope?

    As for people jumping all over a person because they are a Christian I don't understand it. If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy? Why is it that liberals think everything should be accepted and tolerated as long as it isn't Jewish or Christian? I think maybe trying to live to a higher standard causes your failures to stick out all that much more. No one is perfect in this life no matter what you believe in.

    I always think it is kind of funny when someone says they will pray for another person and if that other person does not believe in God they get all offended. My prayers for you to God are like me wishing the best and wanting better for you so why is that so offensive? If you do not believe in God and I do that is no reason for us to not be friends. I have friends from all walks of life that I do not always agree with or can not support their lifestyle choices but I will not stop being their friend. I don't need to go hang out with other Christians exclusively and surround myself with people who live their lives like I believe they should.

    Just so much more to say and this can go much deeper. I don't want to shove my beliefs down your throat. I have made so many mistakes in life and know I am not perfect. I am a Christian but that does not mean I am saying that I am better then you or anyone else who believes differently.
  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat West TNPosts: 4,736 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jsnake:
    I always want to say something when I see conversations like these but I often wonder if I will find the right words. Maybe not the right words to convince you to believe what I believe but maybe the right words to not completely turn you off or harden your heart further towards God.

    God isn't selfish. Say we all agreed in God and that he did everything the Bible says. The world as we know it and everything in it was created by him and exists because of him. Therefor he is worthy of our praise. Had things gone as God originally intended we would all still be living in paradise but he gave man free will and man screwed up. This could go much deeper but I will move on to my next point.

    The problem with Christianity today is religion. Not the belief in God and Jesus but religion itself. How many wars, deaths, tortures, murders, enslavements, horrors, and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion? All through history and up to present day it is all there. Horrible acts committed in the name of God by various religions. No wonder people turn away and harden their hearts. Religion is ruining relationships with God. You don't have to go to church on a specific day or give your money to a pastor to have a relationship with God. It is all about your personal relationship with God and if you believe in his son Jesus Christ and that he died for all of our sins. God doesn't care what you wear to worship him but some churches would turn you away for not dressing properly on Sunday morning. Do you think God will cast people aside because they didn't attend church service or put money in an envelope?

    As for people jumping all over a person because they are a Christian I don't understand it. If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy? Why is it that liberals think everything should be accepted and tolerated as long as it isn't Jewish or Christian? I think maybe trying to live to a higher standard causes your failures to stick out all that much more. No one is perfect in this life no matter what you believe in.

    I always think it is kind of funny when someone says they will pray for another person and if that other person does not believe in God they get all offended. My prayers for you to God are like me wishing the best and wanting better for you so why is that so offensive? If you do not believe in God and I do that is no reason for us to not be friends. I have friends from all walks of life that I do not always agree with or can not support their lifestyle choices but I will not stop being their friend. I don't need to go hang out with other Christians exclusively and surround myself with people who live their lives like I believe they should.

    Just so much more to say and this can go much deeper. I don't want to shove my beliefs down your throat. I have made so many mistakes in life and know I am not perfect. I am a Christian but that does not mean I am saying that I am better then you or anyone else who believes differently.
    I find this to be very well put, and reflects many of my own beliefs.
    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,769 ✭✭✭
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Amos Umwhat:
    jsnake:
    I always want to say something when I see conversations like these but I often wonder if I will find the right words. Maybe not the right words to convince you to believe what I believe but maybe the right words to not completely turn you off or harden your heart further towards God.

    God isn't selfish. Say we all agreed in God and that he did everything the Bible says. The world as we know it and everything in it was created by him and exists because of him. Therefor he is worthy of our praise. Had things gone as God originally intended we would all still be living in paradise but he gave man free will and man screwed up. This could go much deeper but I will move on to my next point.

    The problem with Christianity today is religion. Not the belief in God and Jesus but religion itself. How many wars, deaths, tortures, murders, enslavements, horrors, and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion? All through history and up to present day it is all there. Horrible acts committed in the name of God by various religions. No wonder people turn away and harden their hearts. Religion is ruining relationships with God. You don't have to go to church on a specific day or give your money to a pastor to have a relationship with God. It is all about your personal relationship with God and if you believe in his son Jesus Christ and that he died for all of our sins. God doesn't care what you wear to worship him but some churches would turn you away for not dressing properly on Sunday morning. Do you think God will cast people aside because they didn't attend church service or put money in an envelope?

    As for people jumping all over a person because they are a Christian I don't understand it. If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy? Why is it that liberals think everything should be accepted and tolerated as long as it isn't Jewish or Christian? I think maybe trying to live to a higher standard causes your failures to stick out all that much more. No one is perfect in this life no matter what you believe in.

    I always think it is kind of funny when someone says they will pray for another person and if that other person does not believe in God they get all offended. My prayers for you to God are like me wishing the best and wanting better for you so why is that so offensive? If you do not believe in God and I do that is no reason for us to not be friends. I have friends from all walks of life that I do not always agree with or can not support their lifestyle choices but I will not stop being their friend. I don't need to go hang out with other Christians exclusively and surround myself with people who live their lives like I believe they should.

    Just so much more to say and this can go much deeper. I don't want to shove my beliefs down your throat. I have made so many mistakes in life and know I am not perfect. I am a Christian but that does not mean I am saying that I am better then you or anyone else who believes differently.
    I find this to be very well put, and reflects many of my own beliefs.
    Same here. Well said.

    "...The problem with Christianity today is religion. Not the belief in God and Jesus but religion itself. ..."

    I have a huge problem with American Christianity. So many of our Christian churches are becoming corporations - megga churches that are more political organizations and business entities motivated by self-serving and/or political interests instead of teaching and living the example of Christ. The only time we know of when Christ became angry was when he ran the money-changers (capitalists) out of the temple. It seems to me that modern day Pharasiees are running the show in the US, and if Jesus were to come back tomorrow, they'd be demanding his head, again.
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 2,524
    Vulchor:
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
    Part of being a true Christian is understanding the laws of the Bible and then proclaiming the salvation of those laws. Laws backed by the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Having a discussion with a non Christian where you need to provide 'rationale, science, or facts' will never work. Faith doesn't back itself with science, hard facts where the celestial being hits you on the head with a hammer won't happen, rationale is in the eye of the beholder and isn't really debateable.. They are so polar opposite that trying to convince a logic and hard facts only person about religion will never work.

    Christians spread the word of Jesus. That includes the bible and all the teachings inside of it. If the person that hears the word does not listen, doesn't want to listen, or wants concrete justification why they should listen they are not ready. The Holy Spirit needs to open the heart of the listener.

    Man cannot turn people to Christianity alone.

    I have seen this topic pressed so many times. It always ends with two sides.

    Without evidence I will not believe

    I believe through faith and you need to believe through faith.

    Doesn't anyone else see how the two sides are not going to agree or even have a debate? Discussion is great. Don't get me wrong. Seeing someone ask about religion to understand it further is a great step. Have a polite discussion about what you think and believe.

    A statement like 'Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.' If you think the job of a Christian is to sit back and shake their head in private while their beliefs are being desecrated then you don't understand it. Jesus did not come to earth to save the people who believed. He came to save the ones who did not. Proclaiming the beliefs of Chrisitianity to non-believers is the whole point. I agree Christians who are offensive or violent in their messages do more harm than good but don't judge the religion based off the radicals. Look at Muslims. Does the majority believe they should cut off the head of their wife if they disobey them? Nope, but a small percentage does and that is what sticks in peoples heads when they think about Muslims. Sorry to ramble.
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