God...Selfless or Selfish

135

Comments

  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Marker:
    Vulchor:
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
    Part of being a true Christian is understanding the laws of the Bible and then proclaiming the salvation of those laws. Laws backed by the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Having a discussion with a non Christian where you need to provide 'rationale, science, or facts' will never work. Faith doesn't back itself with science, hard facts where the celestial being hits you on the head with a hammer won't happen, rationale is in the eye of the beholder and isn't really debateable.. They are so polar opposite that trying to convince a logic and hard facts only person about religion will never work.

    Christians spread the word of Jesus. That includes the bible and all the teachings inside of it. If the person that hears the word does not listen, doesn't want to listen, or wants concrete justification why they should listen they are not ready. The Holy Spirit needs to open the heart of the listener.

    Man cannot turn people to Christianity alone.

    I have seen this topic pressed so many times. It always ends with two sides.

    Without evidence I will not believe

    I believe through faith and you need to believe through faith.

    Doesn't anyone else see how the two sides are not going to agree or even have a debate? Discussion is great. Don't get me wrong. Seeing someone ask about religion to understand it further is a great step. Have a polite discussion about what you think and believe.

    A statement like 'Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.' If you think the job of a Christian is to sit back and shake their head in private while their beliefs are being desecrated then you don't understand it. Jesus did not come to earth to save the people who believed. He came to save the ones who did not. Proclaiming the beliefs of Chrisitianity to non-believers is the whole point. I agree Christians who are offensive or violent in their messages do more harm than good but don't judge the religion based off the radicals. Look at Muslims. Does the majority believe they should cut off the head of their wife if they disobey them? Nope, but a small percentage does and that is what sticks in peoples heads when they think about Muslims. Sorry to ramble.
    all true, you simply have to make up your own mind. No one can be forced, convinced, talked into, or taught to believe. And yes, faith is a 100% act of God through the holy spirit
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Marker:
    Vulchor:
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
    Part of being a true Christian is understanding the laws of the Bible and then proclaiming the salvation of those laws. Laws backed by the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Having a discussion with a non Christian where you need to provide 'rationale, science, or facts' will never work. Faith doesn't back itself with science, hard facts where the celestial being hits you on the head with a hammer won't happen, rationale is in the eye of the beholder and isn't really debateable.. They are so polar opposite that trying to convince a logic and hard facts only person about religion will never work.

    Christians spread the word of Jesus. That includes the bible and all the teachings inside of it. If the person that hears the word does not listen, doesn't want to listen, or wants concrete justification why they should listen they are not ready. The Holy Spirit needs to open the heart of the listener.

    Man cannot turn people to Christianity alone.

    I have seen this topic pressed so many times. It always ends with two sides.

    Without evidence I will not believe

    I believe through faith and you need to believe through faith.

    Doesn't anyone else see how the two sides are not going to agree or even have a debate? Discussion is great. Don't get me wrong. Seeing someone ask about religion to understand it further is a great step. Have a polite discussion about what you think and believe.

    A statement like 'Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.' If you think the job of a Christian is to sit back and shake their head in private while their beliefs are being desecrated then you don't understand it. Jesus did not come to earth to save the people who believed. He came to save the ones who did not. Proclaiming the beliefs of Chrisitianity to non-believers is the whole point. I agree Christians who are offensive or violent in their messages do more harm than good but don't judge the religion based off the radicals. Look at Muslims. Does the majority believe they should cut off the head of their wife if they disobey them? Nope, but a small percentage does and that is what sticks in peoples heads when they think about Muslims. Sorry to ramble.
    Pretty much this.

    I will say that many Christians are too obsessed with preaching the Law (shows our sins) and neglect preaching Gospel (shows our salvation). Comdemnation alone is not the way to show Christ's love, and we are called to speak the good news to everyone, as ALL people fall short of perfection and need salvation. The Law obsessed help no one and distance even those who may otherwise listen.

    Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason?
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    image
    With this, I shall paint all American Christians.


    But seriously, Holy sudden topic shift to economic Christianity, Batman. Yes, many Christians tend to economic conservatism, because we are called to be good stewards of what gifts we receive. Currently, I am of the belief that no one in Washington is a good steward of, well, anything, so it is hard to factor it into my vote. As far as Christians "exhaulting" the wealthiest, I don't see it. We celebrate success like anyone else... there is no sin in being wealthy and successful, especially if you use these gifts well. Maybe I am out of touch with those outside my denomination, but we are very critical that do not come by gains honestly. And if you think the church turns a blind eye to those in need... I am not sure how to respond. Let me put it this way, of the ~300k annual operating budget for my church ~30% is spent on Missions (general catch all for financial and material aid with a Christian message) and ~15% (general catch all for financial and material aid without a Christian message) is spent on community support. This does not include individual annual tithes, memorials, and gifts not part of general offering, nor our scholarship program, nor care committee work to help those in need within the congregation, nor any work done by individual members on their own after being moved by the Word. The church is all about helping those in need... we just are generally not very vocal about it, unless someone calls us out.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    "...Holy sudden topic shift to economic Christianity, Batman...."

    You're right. My bad. This ought to be another topic altogether, and it shouldn't sidetrack this thread.
  • VulchorVulchor FloridaPosts: 4,771 ✭✭✭
    Its Ok to sidetrack, and I TOTALLY AGREE with your question JDH, and have wondered this myself and often agrugue with my wife about her parents being extreme right wing conservatives (monetarily), but also very very religious.....though to be fair, their are more the hypocritical type, but I digress.

    Also, I could be mistaken but isnt there an entire school of thought, or book, or something devoted to the idea that God wants you to be rich? I mean this seems like proof that Christians can twist words to mean what they want as much as any Muslim can turn the Quran into a book of violence.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    Vulchor:
    Its Ok to sidetrack, and I TOTALLY AGREE with your question JDH, and have wondered this myself and often agrugue with my wife about her parents being extreme right wing conservatives (monetarily), but also very very religious.....though to be fair, their are more the hypocritical type, but I digress.

    Also, I could be mistaken but isnt there an entire school of thought, or book, or something devoted to the idea that God wants you to be rich? I mean this seems like proof that Christians can twist words to mean what they want as much as any Muslim can turn the Quran into a book of violence.
    Anyone can twist anything, and people will always screw up. Do I think I have perfect understanding of the Bible? No, and check your wallet if anyone tells you they do. However, this is nothing new. Most of the Epistles (letters written by apostles in the New Testemant) were written because of this. Read them, most of them have the following pattern.

    God's blessings
    Hi to people I haven't seen
    I hear you are doing these things, stop it
    Seriously, I was just there, how are you already messing up
    Here is the truth and Law
    Here is the Gospel
    Stop being idiots
    Gospel again
    Gospel one more time
    God's blessings.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Actually, this thread is doing just fine. Maybe I'll start another argument in a day or so about the conflict between Social Darwinist economics and conservative Christianity.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I think you have just realized the problem with mixing religion and politics. Were anyone to run a political campaign with their religion on their sleeve they would be criticized with wanting to make people follow their religion. Stay away from their religion while campaigning? A hypocrite.
  • jsnakejsnake Kansas CityPosts: 5,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulchor:
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
    Yeah, how about the Christians that have killed people over abortion? Talk about a contradiction in beliefs.

    Since we are all human and imperfect I totally understand your point on the "do as I say" mantra. I think that some Christians put themselves in the spotlight and when they do their failures in living a Godly life stands out for all the world to see. There is nothing wrong with living for God when you are famous person or a public figure. But when their imperfections shine through certain people take advantage to point out their failures. Like I said before none of us can live a perfect life. My belief is that only one man lived a perfect life free from sin and that was Jesus Christ. So we all have flaws and we all sin.

    I believe in standing up for what you believe is right and wrong. If you have passion about a topic by all means say what you have to say. It is the way people go about it though. Some Christians have the "Holier Then Thou" attitude and that is not cool. Having the attitude of my way or no way is not going to win anyone over. Trying to force people into submission will drive them further away. Going about it like the Westboro Baptist Church isn't the right way to go about it either. Groups and people like that do more damage in the name of God then they ever do good.

    There are extremes on all sides regarding God, Jesus, and religion. Heck even science has extremes. At the end of the day I think it comes down to respecting each others differences. Jesus didn't tell sinners to get away from him. He didn't say we disagree so we can't be friends.
  • beatnicbeatnic Posts: 4,133
    jsnake:
    Vulchor:
    jsnake:
    I If a person wants to live their life for God by trying to live to a higher standard that should be praised. What harm is a Christian person doing by trying to love his neighbor as himself? What harm is a Christian doing by helping the poor or homeless or hungry or needy?
    I agree with this totally Snake. The problem comes when it becomes a "do as I say" mantra of belief. Not the helping others side, the phiolosohpical side. To tie it into other threads here....the "killing babies is wrong in the bible" side. If you beleive its wrong, fine. If you beleive you wanna convince other people their ideas are incorrect, thats fine too. But please have the courtesy to do it using rationale, science, or facts as opposed to what alot of poeple consider mysticism and fear of damnation. Also, dont judge for others beliefs. Im not saying you do, but Ive known MANNNNNNNY who feel it is their resposibility to be the moral police and call out all those they feel dont meet the standard.
    Yeah, how about the Christians that have killed people over abortion? Talk about a contradiction in beliefs.

    Since we are all human and imperfect I totally understand your point on the "do as I say" mantra. I think that some Christians put themselves in the spotlight and when they do their failures in living a Godly life stands out for all the world to see. There is nothing wrong with living for God when you are famous person or a public figure. But when their imperfections shine through certain people take advantage to point out their failures. Like I said before none of us can live a perfect life. My belief is that only one man lived a perfect life free from sin and that was Jesus Christ. So we all have flaws and we all sin.

    I believe in standing up for what you believe is right and wrong. If you have passion about a topic by all means say what you have to say. It is the way people go about it though. Some Christians have the "Holier Then Thou" attitude and that is not cool. Having the attitude of my way or no way is not going to win anyone over. Trying to force people into submission will drive them further away. Going about it like the Westboro Baptist Church isn't the right way to go about it either. Groups and people like that do more damage in the name of God then they ever do good.

    There are extremes on all sides regarding God, Jesus, and religion. Heck even science has extremes. At the end of the day I think it comes down to respecting each others differences. Jesus didn't tell sinners to get away from him. He didn't say we disagree so we can't be friends.
    And what about that whole Crusades thing. A bit of a contradiction to religion as a whole. Holy War? What's that about?
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 2,524
    beatnic:
    And what about that whole Crusades thing. A bit of a contradiction to religion as a whole. Holy War? What's that about?
    I don't consider people going to war to kill others to force them to believe your religion 'Christians'. You have the right to defend yourself. You have the right to face an oncoming force if they are to force themselves upon you. You also have the right to stop a threat against you before it starts. All this providing it is truly the will of God not the will of man. How to know which is which is where most 'Holy Wars' fail.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    For the readers out there,, who enjoy science and may be on the fence about spirituality,, or creation over darwinism. I wholeheartedly recommend reading "Exceeding Gratitude For The Creator's Plan" By James P Gills. MD,, You can order the book free of charge with no obligation.
    http://www.lovepress.com/books.htm

    Heres a couple other good books

    Darwinism Under The Microscope
    Overcoming Spiritual Blindness

    They are easy reads
    scripture of the day
    Prov 3:5&6
    Oops sorry just read they are no longer sending free books to individual households,, check your local library
  • Roberto99Roberto99 Posts: 1,077
    Want to change the world? Change yourself.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    beatnic:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I think you have just realized the problem with mixing religion and politics. Were anyone to run a political campaign with their religion on their sleeve they would be criticized with wanting to make people follow their religion. Stay away from their religion while campaigning? A hypocrite.
    "...I think you have just realized the problem with mixing religion and politics. ..."

    Well, not quite. I fully recognized the problem of mixing religion with politics in the mid-1970's when I read Leon Uris' "Trinity", followed by a biography of Oliver Cromwell, and a history of the Church of England. That's when I really began to understand why the Founding Fathers wanted the US to have a seperation of Church and State.
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    Ayn Rand was an atheist, a Social Darwinist, and her economic philosophy is best summed up by Herbert Spencer, (from whom she drew much inspiration) when he said "When the poor die, society is benefited." Supply side economics is based on the lie that if you make life really good for the wealthiest, there will be enough crumbs falling off their tables that everybody else can have a decent life. It aint happening, because human beings are greedy, and the accumulations of vast sums of wealth corrupts human beings. Jesus warned us about this time and time and time again.

    I will be happy to have this discussion at a later date, but I have no time for it today.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JDH:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    Ayn Rand was an atheist, a Social Darwinist, and her economic philosophy is best summed up by Herbert Spencer, (from whom she drew much inspiration) when he said "When the poor die, society is benefited." Supply side economics is based on the lie that if you make life really good for the wealthiest, there will be enough crumbs falling off their tables that everybody else can have a decent life. It aint happening, because human beings are greedy, and the accumulations of vast sums of wealth corrupts human beings. Jesus warned us about this time and time and time again.

    I will be happy to have this discussion at a later date, but I have no time for it today.
    Sure, dude. I know she was atheist, but I think she had some good stuff that does agree with Christianity. Love to have a chat some day
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
    I would say socialism comes farthest away..
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    Gray4lines:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
    I would say socialism comes farthest away..
    I know,,, and I would add if we put aside religion and just looked at the pro's and cons of both systems I prefer capitalism, However both systems have their flaws and can be exploited by the Greedy and the Power Hungry!!
  • JDHJDH Posts: 2,107
    Unregulated capitalism is a predatory jungle, where the strong crush the weak. Unregulated capitalism always has and always will seek slavery for those who labor. Unregulated capitalism allows wealth without law, and history proves that men without law become oppressive and cruel, because that is the nature of men.

    I've always viewed the United States as a three-legged stool; a capitalist economy with protection for private property, a democratic government to diffuse political power, and the ability to regulate capitalist commerce with law, and judeo-christian ethics that tempers and moderates the other two "legs of the stool. Democracy and Capitalism are always in dynamic tenison, because they both seek different goals. The capitalist would concentrate wealth and power, while the democratic government would diffuse both. The moderating influence of our traditional judeo-christian ethics has lessened the tension by providing a framework of acceptable ethics.

    However, if either of these three "legs' becomes stronger than the other two, the stool becomes unstable. I think that's where we are right now.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
    I would say socialism comes farthest away..
    I know,,, and I would add if we put aside religion and just looked at the pro's and cons of both systems I prefer capitalism, However both systems have their flaws and can be exploited by the Greedy and the Power Hungry!!
    It boils down to "Why do we give?" and "Is wealth a sin?". We give as a response to God's love, as moved by the Holy Spirit. Giving is a Gospel action, not a Law action. If law is put in place that forces one to give, such as socialism, more may be given, but out of a sense of duty instead of love. (This is also why I am against churches with "mandatory tithes" and "stewardship drives"). Think of Acts when the Church is founded. There was not a needy one among them, as those who could gave. They weren't commanded to give, they did not break themselves, and no where is it said that none of them were well off after giving. The only instance I can think of where the amount mattered was when a couple falsely claimed to have given everything to the church in an attempt to win favor, instead of out of Love. As far as wealth and sin, the example that jumps directly to mind is Ruth and Boaz. Boaz was wealthy, but was also extremely generous. He didn't give because anyone made him, but out of love. If we don't force people to give, will some people abuse the system? Of course they will. I know this is a running theme in my posts, but humans suck. And if we force them to give, the same people will find a way to abuse the system.

    Also, on a side note of socialism, as a gov employee myself, it flys in the face of stewardship, as you can usually count on the gov putting three extra layers of bureaucracy than is needed to do the job. At the end of the day, the kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right should stay as seperated as possible.
  • fla-gypsyfla-gypsy Posts: 3,024 ✭✭
    The role of religion in politics, now that would be a good discussion but the Christian faith is actually apolitical and at the same time declares that God alone raises up Kings and puts down Kings and commands us to obey the civil authorities. This tennant has prevented me from becoming a revolutionary/ insurrectionist. LOL! I should also point out that Christ himself operated inside the control of the Roman Empire, essentially a dictatorship.
  • The_KidThe_Kid Posts: 7,871 ✭✭✭
    The american bible channel is now on GSN (PTZ) ,,if anyone is interested
  • OchoZachoOchoZacho Posts: 1,471
    jthanatos:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
    I would say socialism comes farthest away..
    I know,,, and I would add if we put aside religion and just looked at the pro's and cons of both systems I prefer capitalism, However both systems have their flaws and can be exploited by the Greedy and the Power Hungry!!
    It boils down to "Why do we give?" and "Is wealth a sin?". We give as a response to God's love, as moved by the Holy Spirit. Giving is a Gospel action, not a Law action. If law is put in place that forces one to give, such as socialism, more may be given, but out of a sense of duty instead of love. (This is also why I am against churches with "mandatory tithes" and "stewardship drives"). Think of Acts when the Church is founded. There was not a needy one among them, as those who could gave. They weren't commanded to give, they did not break themselves, and no where is it said that none of them were well off after giving. The only instance I can think of where the amount mattered was when a couple falsely claimed to have given everything to the church in an attempt to win favor, instead of out of Love. As far as wealth and sin, the example that jumps directly to mind is Ruth and Boaz. Boaz was wealthy, but was also extremely generous. He didn't give because anyone made him, but out of love. If we don't force people to give, will some people abuse the system? Of course they will. I know this is a running theme in my posts, but humans suck. And if we force them to give, the same people will find a way to abuse the system.

    Also, on a side note of socialism, as a gov employee myself, it flys in the face of stewardship, as you can usually count on the gov putting three extra layers of bureaucracy than is needed to do the job. At the end of the day, the kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right should stay as seperated as possible.
    I believe we (meaning, we believers) give to be good stewards of what God has given us. Wealth, in and of itself, is not a sin. It's a matter of the heart and how you view that wealth is when you can determine if it is a sin. Do you love the wealth more than you love Christ? Would you sin to get wealthier? Or do you view your wealth as a gift from God, entrusted to you to further the Kingdom? I'm speaking, of course, only from a Christian point of view. Food for thought.... and, go!
  • jliujliu Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭✭
    I really don't have much to add in terms of biblical knowledge (Scripture memorization etc bc I'm not all that good at it) but what I do know is through faith in Christ, my life is enriched to the deepest of my core. The type that will just let me sit in the silence and be MOVED down to the pit of my stomach. In the darkest times, in the brightest times, I've never felt joy or pain in the best way possible. I've always been in the mindset of searching for the best mentor and search no more, I found it. The best father (my dad passed away when I was young), the best friend, the best career adviser, everything. Is He selfish? yes he is for me. Is He selfless? yes, for the sake of me. hahah ok, rant over.
  • jthanatosjthanatos Posts: 1,570 ✭✭
    OchoZacho:
    jthanatos:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    The Kid:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    I guess you guys dont get it,, Im sorry if that seems harsh, but neither political agenda has any worth in true christianity, at best,, true socialism is what comes closest. Not gonna be a bible thumper here but here are some scriptures that deal with lovers of the world and or money
    Mathew 19:16-28,,1 Tim 6:6-10,,,1st Tim 3:3,,,2 Tim 3:2-4,,,Hebrews 13:5
    I would say socialism comes farthest away..
    I know,,, and I would add if we put aside religion and just looked at the pro's and cons of both systems I prefer capitalism, However both systems have their flaws and can be exploited by the Greedy and the Power Hungry!!
    It boils down to "Why do we give?" and "Is wealth a sin?". We give as a response to God's love, as moved by the Holy Spirit. Giving is a Gospel action, not a Law action. If law is put in place that forces one to give, such as socialism, more may be given, but out of a sense of duty instead of love. (This is also why I am against churches with "mandatory tithes" and "stewardship drives"). Think of Acts when the Church is founded. There was not a needy one among them, as those who could gave. They weren't commanded to give, they did not break themselves, and no where is it said that none of them were well off after giving. The only instance I can think of where the amount mattered was when a couple falsely claimed to have given everything to the church in an attempt to win favor, instead of out of Love. As far as wealth and sin, the example that jumps directly to mind is Ruth and Boaz. Boaz was wealthy, but was also extremely generous. He didn't give because anyone made him, but out of love. If we don't force people to give, will some people abuse the system? Of course they will. I know this is a running theme in my posts, but humans suck. And if we force them to give, the same people will find a way to abuse the system.

    Also, on a side note of socialism, as a gov employee myself, it flys in the face of stewardship, as you can usually count on the gov putting three extra layers of bureaucracy than is needed to do the job. At the end of the day, the kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right should stay as seperated as possible.
    I believe we (meaning, we believers) give to be good stewards of what God has given us. Wealth, in and of itself, is not a sin. It's a matter of the heart and how you view that wealth is when you can determine if it is a sin. Do you love the wealth more than you love Christ? Would you sin to get wealthier? Or do you view your wealth as a gift from God, entrusted to you to further the Kingdom? I'm speaking, of course, only from a Christian point of view. Food for thought.... and, go!
    Pretty much this. Any human thing can be sinful. Just because some people fall into sin, doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to use our gifts in a God pleasing manner.
  • Gray4linesGray4lines KentuckyPosts: 4,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jliu:
    I really don't have much to add in terms of biblical knowledge (Scripture memorization etc bc I'm not all that good at it) but what I do know is through faith in Christ, my life is enriched to the deepest of my core. The type that will just let me sit in the silence and be MOVED down to the pit of my stomach. In the darkest times, in the brightest times, I've never felt joy or pain in the best way possible. I've always been in the mindset of searching for the best mentor and search no more, I found it. The best father (my dad passed away when I was young), the best friend, the best career adviser, everything. Is He selfish? yes he is for me. Is He selfless? yes, for the sake of me. hahah ok, rant over.
    thanks jiunn, that's very cool.
    LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
  • phobicsquirrelphobicsquirrel Posts: 7,349
    JDH:
    Gray4lines:
    JDH:
    "...Finally, I understand where you are coming from with not injecting religion into politics and forcing it upon others. Please understand me when I say.... that is really hard. My beliefs and religion are an integral part of who I am... and in some cases the options are almost either/or dilemas. If I don't vote for what I believe through God's word...many times you would be asking me to vote against my morals. As Marker said, it ends in an impasse as what is a justifiable rationale for me doesn't fit others criteria. And it is frustrating for both sides.

    Finally, something to think about, can anyone say honestly that every belief they hold and everything that is important to them has been arrived at purely through science and reason? ..."

    What truly puzzles me is when Christians vote to support social darwinist economic theory (Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, Laffer, supply-side economists who exhault the rich, and punish and poor). The Ryan Budget and supply side economic theory is in complete diametric opposition to Christian teachings, yet conservative Christians in the US tend to exhault the wealthiest among us, including the theives on Wall St, while turning what I believe is a blind eye to the least among us.

    I don't get it. My economic viewpoint is rooted in basic Christianity, but I find myself consistently opposed to American Christians on economic issues because it seems to me that they are not voting as Christians, but rather as Conservatives.
    I fundamentally disagree with this view. I believe a strong argument can be made for Christian Objectivism (Ayn Rands philosophy) and that individualism and capitalism are the only political-economic system that fit in with Christianity. I am very much a Christian, and very much a fan of Milton Friedman, and very much an economist. Capitalism doesn't say you have to be rich, or shun the poor. it just says equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. I think, very contradictory to your statement, individualistic capitalism leaves room for you the individual to take your property and charitably give how you see fit. Its about choice. When the govt makes that choice for you, is that more moral? I believe that capitalism is a perfect fit with Christianity and that socialism in any form is at odds.

    check out The 5000 Year Leap.
    Ayn Rand was an atheist, a Social Darwinist, and her economic philosophy is best summed up by Herbert Spencer, (from whom she drew much inspiration) when he said "When the poor die, society is benefited." Supply side economics is based on the lie that if you make life really good for the wealthiest, there will be enough crumbs falling off their tables that everybody else can have a decent life. It aint happening, because human beings are greedy, and the accumulations of vast sums of wealth corrupts human beings. Jesus warned us about this time and time and time again.

    I will be happy to have this discussion at a later date, but I have no time for it today.
    Ayn Rand was so hypocritical. Died with govt handouts and everything There is a reason why the founding fathers of this country separated church and state. Something that seems to have been blurred and even ignored these days for some people and elected officials. As Bachmann said, Gold told me to run! WTF?
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