I said at the beginning of this conversation that I think gays should be given all rights due them. Just call it something else.
separate has never been equal. if it was equal then it would be called the same thing.
beatnic:
I've explained that my positions are based on long held moral principles. What I gathered is that some of your's (collectively) are not based on morals, yet you will use Religion to make your argument?
And that's a bit hypocritical.
i am not asking you to change your morality. you do what you gotta do when it comes to the rights of gays.
... so long as you dont violate them.
as far as being hypocritical... religion is the base of the argument. my first post on this topic stated that i was for religious rights and that is why i am for gay marriage. this means that the US will legally let Gays get married in a religion that is accepting of Gay marriages. I am not asking any Christians to change their morals or for any church to marry two men if they dont want to. I am asking the US to recognize that a religion can accept gay marriage and the US will uphold that union they way that they would uphold the union of a man and a woman.
you are viewing this through the eyes of your religion not a religion that accepts gay marriage. you are asking us to accept your religion as the one that is morally correct even though two men getting married does not violate any rights.
it is not hypocritical to use religion as a basis for legalizing gay marriage because some religions accept it. yours doesnt. and thats ok too. your religion has a right to do so.
beatnic:
Yes, I ask absurd questions. But a principled thinker has no problem in answering what he really means. Peace brothers!
not sure if this was directed at me, but i feel that i have answered them. if you feel i have not, please ask me about what part and we can discuss this further.
Nothing was directed at you. And as soon as I posted it, I knew someone would quickly use the phrase "separate but equal". Still, all of your religious positions rely on legal positions, and visa versa. My positions are more firmly grounded on a religious foundation.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
You assume to much I am not trying to force anyone to conform yet that same argument could be used to what you have been pushing. By my concern and wanting nothing bad to happen to someone whether I speak to them in person or pray for them from my home I do not see as me forcing them to change. However it is apparent that even a conversation in passing or a word mention anything that does not fit your belief is now forcing change.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
You assume to much I am not trying to force anyone to conform yet that same argument could be used to what you have been pushing. By my concern and wanting nothing bad to happen to someone whether I speak to them in person or pray for them from my home I do not see as me forcing them to change. However it is apparent that even a conversation in passing or a word mention anything that does not fit your belief is now forcing change.
OK, let's start here - at a more fundamental level of the queston - Do you think homosexual behavior is genetic or a "choice"? If it is a choice, then you would naturally assume that the chosen behavior can be changed. If the behavior can be changed, then it would also be logical foryouto try to intervene in the lives of those you are "concerned" about. However, if it is genetic, then it will not be possible to change them, any more tha it would be possible to "convert" a heterosexual into a homosexual person.
As I said, get government out of marriage entirely. That being said, the argument of whether freedom of religion guarantees right to marry gays or anyone else is a nonstarter. Religious freedom must always be weighed against other principles. For example, if a religion wanted to sacrifice willing people, should they be allowed? I know, it is an absurd example, but we always must be vigilant not to guard one principle so zealously that others are forgotten.
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
As I said, get government out of marriage entirely. That being said, the argument of whether freedom of religion guarantees right to marry gays or anyone else is a nonstarter. Religious freedom must always be weighed against other principles. For example, if a religion wanted to sacrifice willing people, should they be allowed? I know, it is an absurd example, but we always must be vigilant not to guard one principle so zealously that others are forgotten.
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
I think it's a semantical thing. As you describe it, "self-will " is the same as "free-will" (as I'm using it), because we have the freedom to accept or reject the information we are given. It is assumed that God will behave according to plan, a plan that we are not privy to, because it is His plan to begin with.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
You assume to much I am not trying to force anyone to conform yet that same argument could be used to what you have been pushing. By my concern and wanting nothing bad to happen to someone whether I speak to them in person or pray for them from my home I do not see as me forcing them to change. However it is apparent that even a conversation in passing or a word mention anything that does not fit your belief is now forcing change.
OK, let's start here - at a more fundamental level of the queston - Do you think homosexual behavior is genetic or a "choice"? If it is a choice, then you would naturally assume that the chosen behavior can be changed. If the behavior can be changed, then it would also be logical foryouto try to intervene in the lives of those you are "concerned" about. However, if it is genetic, then it will not be possible to change them, any more tha it would be possible to "convert" a heterosexual into a homosexual person.
I believe it is chosen not genetic and by my sharing with a gay person what God says about their chosen life style is not me forcing them to change. My praying for them is nothing more then me interceding for them and again not me forcing them to change. You again assume I go around beating gays and other sinners up. I only speak to them when the Holy Spirit puts it on my heart and never of my own feeling.
As I said, get government out of marriage entirely. That being said, the argument of whether freedom of religion guarantees right to marry gays or anyone else is a nonstarter. Religious freedom must always be weighed against other principles. For example, if a religion wanted to sacrifice willing people, should they be allowed? I know, it is an absurd example, but we always must be vigilant not to guard one principle so zealously that others are forgotten.
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
I think it's a semantical thing. As you describe it, "self-will " is the same as "free-will" (as I'm using it), because we have the freedom to accept or reject the information we are given. It is assumed that God will behave according to plan, a plan that we are not privy to, because it is His plan to begin with.
True enough... just the Lutheran in me... In the middle of confirmation season, so I am in full on semantics mode.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
You assume to much I am not trying to force anyone to conform yet that same argument could be used to what you have been pushing. By my concern and wanting nothing bad to happen to someone whether I speak to them in person or pray for them from my home I do not see as me forcing them to change. However it is apparent that even a conversation in passing or a word mention anything that does not fit your belief is now forcing change.
OK, let's start here - at a more fundamental level of the queston - Do you think homosexual behavior is genetic or a "choice"? If it is a choice, then you would naturally assume that the chosen behavior can be changed. If the behavior can be changed, then it would also be logical foryouto try to intervene in the lives of those you are "concerned" about. However, if it is genetic, then it will not be possible to change them, any more tha it would be possible to "convert" a heterosexual into a homosexual person.
I believe it is chosen not genetic and by my sharing with a gay person what God says about their chosen life style is not me forcing them to change. My praying for them is nothing more then me interceding for them and again not me forcing them to change. You again assume I go around beating gays and other sinners up. I only speak to them when the Holy Spirit puts it on my heart and never of my own feeling.
No, I don't think you go around beating anybody up. It's a figure of speech, not a literal accusation. However, a lot of gay people don't want your intervention, and they resent the tactics many Christians are taking toward them, and really do want it to stop. It is not a loving way to approace these people.
This is the fundamental point on which we disagree, though. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's genetic, and that makes all the difference in the way we see the "problem", and because we see the problem differently, we choose to deal with it much differently. If, (as Christ calls you to do) you truly love these folks and want them to be "saved", you might try putting yourself in their position (no, you don't have to pretentd to be gay) but look at the way the Christian community is treating them. Take a long hard look at it.
As I said, get government out of marriage entirely. That being said, the argument of whether freedom of religion guarantees right to marry gays or anyone else is a nonstarter. Religious freedom must always be weighed against other principles. For example, if a religion wanted to sacrifice willing people, should they be allowed? I know, it is an absurd example, but we always must be vigilant not to guard one principle so zealously that others are forgotten.
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
I think it's a semantical thing. As you describe it, "self-will " is the same as "free-will" (as I'm using it), because we have the freedom to accept or reject the information we are given. It is assumed that God will behave according to plan, a plan that we are not privy to, because it is His plan to begin with.
True enough... just the Lutheran in me... In the middle of confirmation season, so I am in full on semantics mode.
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarialism yet.
As I said, get government out of marriage entirely. That being said, the argument of whether freedom of religion guarantees right to marry gays or anyone else is a nonstarter. Religious freedom must always be weighed against other principles. For example, if a religion wanted to sacrifice willing people, should they be allowed? I know, it is an absurd example, but we always must be vigilant not to guard one principle so zealously that others are forgotten.
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
I think it's a semantical thing. As you describe it, "self-will " is the same as "free-will" (as I'm using it), because we have the freedom to accept or reject the information we are given. It is assumed that God will behave according to plan, a plan that we are not privy to, because it is His plan to begin with.
True enough... just the Lutheran in me... In the middle of confirmation season, so I am in full on semantics mode.
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarialism yet. The really strange thing is that most of my closest friends are Catholic
No, I don't think you go around beating anybody up. It's a figure of speech, not a literal accusation. However, a lot of gay people don't want your intervention, and they resent the tactics many Christians are taking toward them, and really do want it to stop. It is not a loving way to approace these people.
This is the fundamental point on which we disagree, though. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's genetic, and that makes all the difference in the way we see the "problem", and because we see the problem differently, we choose to deal with it much differently. If, (as Christ calls you to do) you truly love these folks and want them to be "saved", you might try putting yourself in their position (no, you don't have to pretentd to be gay) but look at the way the Christian community is treating them. Take a long hard look at it.
Again you assume that because some Christians and churches treat gays badly that they must all and that if they don't accept homosexuality as genetic then said Christians and churches will never understand the burden they carry trying to be accepted. What I do know is God does not create anything imperfect, any imperfection is from the lesser god Satan. Since he cannot create anything Satan relies on lies and misleading us. God did not program us to be gay or there would be no mention of it in His Word about it being an abomination.
No, I don't think you go around beating anybody up. It's a figure of speech, not a literal accusation. However, a lot of gay people don't want your intervention, and they resent the tactics many Christians are taking toward them, and really do want it to stop. It is not a loving way to approace these people.
This is the fundamental point on which we disagree, though. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's genetic, and that makes all the difference in the way we see the "problem", and because we see the problem differently, we choose to deal with it much differently. If, (as Christ calls you to do) you truly love these folks and want them to be "saved", you might try putting yourself in their position (no, you don't have to pretentd to be gay) but look at the way the Christian community is treating them. Take a long hard look at it.
Again you assume that because some Christians and churches treat gays badly that they must all and that if they don't accept homosexuality as genetic then said Christians and churches will never understand the burden they carry trying to be accepted. What I do know is God does not create anything imperfect, any imperfection is from the lesser god Satan. Since he cannot create anything Satan relies on lies and misleading us. God did not program us to be gay or there would be no mention of it in His Word about it being an abomination.
I do not believe that man is a perfect being. If homosexuality is not genetic, as you believe, then gays must be "creatures of Satan", or controlled by Satan. I don't believe that either. Because we see the world fundamentally from different points of view, our view human behavior is also fundamentally different.
"...if they (Christians) don't accept homosexuality as genetic then said Christians and churches will never understand the burden they carry trying to be accepted."
Yes, 100% correct.
"...I believe it (homosexuality) is chosen not genetic and by my sharing with a gay person what God says about their chosen life style is not me forcing them to change. My praying for them is nothing more then me interceding for them and again not me forcing them to change. ..."
Preventing them from living a life with equal protection under the law because your religious views will not accept them for who they are is forcing them to change, to accept your view of the world, to conform to your requirements for a good life. Leave 'em alone. Let God judge.
The Mormons were forced to live outside of American society because of their religious beliefs and sexual practices. Was that justified?
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarianism yet. The funny thing is that most of my best friends are Catholic.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarianism yet. The funny thing is that most of my best friends are Catholic.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarianism yet. The funny thing is that most of my best friends are Catholic.
You choose good friends.
True, true, so do they. Oh, wait a minute, does UK basketball count as a religion?
No, I don't think you go around beating anybody up. It's a figure of speech, not a literal accusation. However, a lot of gay people don't want your intervention, and they resent the tactics many Christians are taking toward them, and really do want it to stop. It is not a loving way to approace these people.
This is the fundamental point on which we disagree, though. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's genetic, and that makes all the difference in the way we see the "problem", and because we see the problem differently, we choose to deal with it much differently. If, (as Christ calls you to do) you truly love these folks and want them to be "saved", you might try putting yourself in their position (no, you don't have to pretentd to be gay) but look at the way the Christian community is treating them. Take a long hard look at it.
Again you assume that because some Christians and churches treat gays badly that they must all and that if they don't accept homosexuality as genetic then said Christians and churches will never understand the burden they carry trying to be accepted. What I do know is God does not create anything imperfect, any imperfection is from the lesser god Satan. Since he cannot create anything Satan relies on lies and misleading us. God did not program us to be gay or there would be no mention of it in His Word about it being an abomination.
Mike, thank you for your efforts and good explanation. He will never understand. This one is lost.
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarianism yet. The funny thing is that most of my best friends are Catholic.
You choose good friends.
True, true, so do they. Oh, wait a minute, does UK basketball count as a religion?
"...what matters to me is to keep others that are committing a sin from going to hell. ..."
We are given free will for a reason. We are also given Religious liberty in this country, so that we may all find Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness for ourselves. Whether or not somebody is "going to hell" is not your decision to make, and frankly, after the information has been made avaliable to those "sinners" you've done your job. I don't think you have the right to run their lives for them, even if you have the best of intentions. A lot of people are in prison (for pot crimes) because some people wanted to protect them from themselves, and all they did was to destroy their lives. Leave them alone, and leave the judgement to God.
What is going on with you? No matter what I or anyone posts or replies to, you always seem angry and argumentative. You want me to leave others alone then why can't you leave me alone to pursue what is important to me. My caring for someone as to what will happen to them is far more of a benefit to them then the beating and berating you give to me and others on this forum.
There is absolutely no anger in my thoughts. Truly. I'm really sorry if that's what you think. However, I think that you are determined to beat the crap out of the ones you are trying to "save" from themselves. Leave 'em alone, let God judge. I find it so ironic that people who are so concerned with "personal liberty" are so willing to force others to conform tho their way to living. that's not liberty, or freedom, it's freedom to conform.
Hey JDH. I'm curious. Do you follow any particular religion?
We went to a Lutheran Church for a long time in WA. Now I'm a watered down Methodist, which is a really really watered down Baptist. But I haven't fallen into the pit of Unitarianism yet. The funny thing is that most of my best friends are Catholic.
You choose good friends.
True, true, so do they. Oh, wait a minute, does UK basketball count as a religion?
More like a cult. LMAO
Maybe, but they definately have two Saints - Pitino and Calipari.
WOWWWWWWWWWWWW. We got a threat to shut down a thread for arguing different points----which happens here all the time and 99% of the time its decent natured and we all just like to bust balls and stick to our feelings. Granted we can get nasty, sometimes offensive, and leave shaking out heads as to the nature of humanity (many's feelings of my own posts included). But with all the name calling and disagreement, I think its good here most of the time and some threads and topics are just lend themselves to a more argumentative and hot tempered nature-----yet at the end of the day, we still move on. Yet now a (granted kind and peaceful) reminder to keep things civil. I am not suprised, but am disappointed that this causes the powers the be to write or post here, but the threads about the Forum Blend of Cigar doesnt warrant a response...especially when business is what the business of CCOM is.
Guys just make sure this stays a peaceful thread I'd hate to have to shut down a 3 year ould thread.
Andrew, really? JDH, Vulchor, Phoebic, MTucelli and I are all best of friends. LOL. Some people don't have a stomach for political arguing. Yes, it gets nasty, that's why we love it. JDH did threaten to beat me up once, but I understood his point. Boys will be boys. We'll let you know when a real problem arises. LOL
Guys just make sure this stays a peaceful thread I'd hate to have to shut down a 3 year ould thread.
Andrew, really? JDH, Vulchor, Phoebic, MTucelli and I are all best of friends. LOL. Some people don't have a stomach for political arguing. Yes, it gets nasty, that's why we love it. JDH did threaten to beat me up once, but I understood his point. Boys will be boys. We'll let you know when a real problem arises. LOL
No, I didn't threaten to beat anyone up. I said I was glad you weren't standing in front of me (because I might have SAID something I would have regreted). That's a far cry from threatening violence.
Guys just make sure this stays a peaceful thread I'd hate to have to shut down a 3 year ould thread.
Andrew, really? JDH, Vulchor, Phoebic, MTucelli and I are all best of friends. LOL. Some people don't have a stomach for political arguing. Yes, it gets nasty, that's why we love it. JDH did threaten to beat me up once, but I understood his point. Boys will be boys. We'll let you know when a real problem arises. LOL
No, I didn't threaten to beat anyone up. I said I was glad you weren't standing in front of me (because I might have SAID something I would have regreted). That's a far cry from threatening violence. Besides, I'm a lover, not a fighter.
Guys just make sure this stays a peaceful thread I'd hate to have to shut down a 3 year ould thread.
Andrew, really? JDH, Vulchor, Phoebic, MTucelli and I are all best of friends. LOL. Some people don't have a stomach for political arguing. Yes, it gets nasty, that's why we love it. JDH did threaten to beat me up once, but I understood his point. Boys will be boys. We'll let you know when a real problem arises. LOL
No, I didn't threaten to beat anyone up. I said I was glad you weren't standing in front of me (because I might have SAID something I would have regreted). That's a far cry from threatening violence.
Guys just make sure this stays a peaceful thread I'd hate to have to shut down a 3 year ould thread.
Andrew, really? JDH, Vulchor, Phoebic, MTucelli and I are all best of friends. LOL. Some people don't have a stomach for political arguing. Yes, it gets nasty, that's why we love it. JDH did threaten to beat me up once, but I understood his point. Boys will be boys. We'll let you know when a real problem arises. LOL
No, I didn't threaten to beat anyone up. I said I was glad you weren't standing in front of me (because I might have SAID something I would have regreted). That's a far cry from threatening violence.
Huckabee---I think its time you were committed for a mental exam, at least temporarily. Taking god out of school is why these things happen?? Really?? Have you even looked at how many people in history have been killed in the name of this god fellow? Lets say for a minute I was religious and not a sarcastic soul-----this is the kind of "logic" that borders on what I see everyday in paranoid schizophrenics.
Also, what about the 7 dead at a Christian school earlier this year by a gunman? Were these 7 not -praying hard enough or what is the reason there? You sir are truly sickening spot in an already disgusting situation.
I think you missed his point vulchor. Or, you are just happy to jump on the atheist bandwagon. His point was that this young man acted without thought to morality. And when morality is removed from the public sector, some are raised without knowing right from wrong.
Comments
CutleryBarn
I do believe that gay marriage is abhorrent. I also believe that the government should not take its stances from any religion, not even mine, which...of course... is the correct one. :P Like I said, if they stay silent entirely on marriage and only concern themselves with earthly things, so much of this conflict would be resolved. By voting into law DOMA, it causes conflict with two core principles of this country. Conversely, putting a law on the books that legalizes gay marriage. Well, there were these two cities that made it the law to sin against God.... and there was this guy, named Lot that lived there...
If they just got out of the marrying business, so much grief would be avoided.
Side note, JDH, I would argue there is no such thing as 'free will'. There is self-will, which allows us to not accept salvation... which makes self-will kinda worthless, but nothing we do will change God's play one iota.
I think it's a semantical thing. As you describe it, "self-will " is the same as "free-will" (as I'm using it), because we have the freedom to accept or reject the information we are given. It is assumed that God will behave according to plan, a plan that we are not privy to, because it is His plan to begin with.
CutleryBarn
This is the fundamental point on which we disagree, though. I don't think it's a choice, I think it's genetic, and that makes all the difference in the way we see the "problem", and because we see the problem differently, we choose to deal with it much differently. If, (as Christ calls you to do) you truly love these folks and want them to be "saved", you might try putting yourself in their position (no, you don't have to pretentd to be gay) but look at the way the Christian community is treating them. Take a long hard look at it.
CutleryBarn
"...if they (Christians) don't accept homosexuality as genetic then said Christians and churches will never understand the burden they carry trying to be accepted."
Yes, 100% correct.
"...I believe it (homosexuality) is chosen not genetic and by my sharing with a gay person what God says about their chosen life style is not me forcing them to change. My praying for them is nothing more then me interceding for them and again not me forcing them to change. ..."
Preventing them from living a life with equal protection under the law because your religious views will not accept them for who they are is forcing them to change, to accept your view of the world, to conform to your requirements for a good life. Leave 'em alone. Let God judge.
The Mormons were forced to live outside of American society because of their religious beliefs and sexual practices. Was that justified?
Also, what about the 7 dead at a Christian school earlier this year by a gunman? Were these 7 not -praying hard enough or what is the reason there? You sir are truly sickening spot in an already disgusting situation.