Edward Snowden: whistle-blower or traitor?

bearb

Not trying to incite anything here, just wondering what you think of him. A survey was released, and a number of stories are growing from it. "When Edward J. Snowden risked prison to go public with classified documents about National Security Agency surveillance, he said he wanted to give the public a chance to weigh in on what he considered an excessive intrusion on the privacy of Americans. " "After Edward Snowden’s whistle-blowing, Americans rethink trade-offs on freedom and security: by a big margin, 55 per cent to 34 per cent, Americans regard Edward Snowden as a whistleblower, not a traitor."

Anyway, just wondering some of your thoughts. Story can be found here, with links to the survey also.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/07/14/after_edward_snowdens_whistleblowing_americans_rethink_tradeoffs_on_freedom_and_security_editorial.html

beatnic

It seems like he may have more than anyone could have imagined. And spying on American citizens just may be the small stuff. The jury is still out from my point of view.

macs-smokes

He is a traitor. If he had gone to his chain of command... he would have been a whistle-blower. By fleeing the country to enemies of the state... he branded himself a traitor.

webmost

macs-smokes:

He is a traitor. If he had gone to his chain of command... he would have been a whistle-blower. By fleeing the country to enemies of the state... he branded himself a traitor.

You propose an impossible standard. How do you follow a chain of command when the chain of command chains you to the very problem?

While working on a theme for a web store yesterday, I flipped on the toob, and there was a Showtime documentary called The World According to Dickk Cheney under way. Dickk is unabashed and unashamed. Thinks, for example, that torture was a good idea. Stands by it. What if you were assigned to waterboard ragheads back then? If you followed your chain of command all the way to the top, where would it get you? To Dickk Cheney. Remember the guy suspected to have spilled the beans about Abu Graib? The Bush gang leaked that his wife was a CIA agent, putting her in mortal danger and both of them out of business. Has it gotten any better since Hope and Change? No. This present gang has prosecuted more whistle blowers than all previous administrations combined.

______________________

Meanwhile, who exactly are the "enemies of the state"? The Guardian newspaper? Hong Kong? Moscow? Bolivia, Nicaragua and Venezuela? Perhaps we ought to ask who aren't enemies of a paranoid overly powerful state in decline. Or are the true "enemies of the state" we, the people, who the state is bending every effort and abandoning every principle to control? Which gang should Snowden be loyal to? To a free society or to The State?

I don't say he didn't to wrong. He was presented Sophie's choice. Given two evils, he chose one. It's very tough to contemn a fellow for breaking his oath when you have a government run by scoundrels who lay one hand on the Bible, raise the other, take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, then spend their entire term in a feverish daily concerted effort to destroy precisely that which they have sworn to defend.

Don't worry. He will pay the price.

Unlike those who perpetrate this shitt. They'll retire in splendor. As did Dickk Cheney.

Amos_Umwhat

I've been conflicted about this for a while. Webmost has described my conflict as well or better than I could. This is one of those things where only time will tell, maybe.

raisindot

Snowden is not a traitor, because by definition a traitor is someone who undermines a nation's security of war efforts during the time of war. Since there is no declared war going on at the moment (just 'police actions') and since what Snowden revealed were general practices, rather than specific actions (i.e., listing specific countries or revealing double agents) and since what he was revealing referred to domestic practices, rather than war-time practices, the worst he can be accused of is espionage.

That said, while I think he's a totally arrogant and self-serving b**tard, I admire him for adhering to his principles and revealing a set of practices (which, by the way, didn't start with either the Bush or Obama administration and have been going on decades) that are extremely bad.

My question here is: Where is all the huge outcry from our wonderful Congresspeople and new legislation designed to curb these overeaches? With so many elected on a platform of anti-government intrusion in private lives, how come there's no mass movement among politicians in both parties to scale back these abuses?

Vulchor

Whistle-blower.....hell, maybe even true Patriot but Im not sure just yet about that one. Its kinda like the old joke about Republicans, but here I think it holds true for all our officials who love their power. its says "Republicans want less government for the same reason criminals was less police". To me it seems here both signs want to brand him a traitor because they certainly done want us to see who our real enemies are alot of the time. That would afterall make people wiser and deeper thinking, and no one in a position of power has ever wanted that from their underlings.

perkinke

I don't know whether he's a traitor, I don't agree with him running from what he did, but I am not quite prepared to label him as such. But I am relatively sure he cannot be considered a whistle-blower because what the NSA was doing was not illegal. The patriot act, I think, explicitly authorizes such actions to be conducted without true oversight; for it to be a whistle-blower situation he would have had to be reporting illegal conduct. Or I might be talking out my ass.

raisindot

No, Perkinke, I think you're right. Everything the NSA is doing, while ethically reprehensible and a danger to our civil rights, is perfectly legal since it was authorized by the Patriotic Act. Snowden is guilty of breaking the national security laws he agreed to abide by when he joined the NSA, a fact that can't be mitigated by the nature of the despicable but perfectly legal policies he disclosed.

Roberto99

raisindot:

No, Perkinke, I think you're right. Everything the NSA is doing, while ethically reprehensible and a danger to our civil rights, is perfectly legal since it was authorized by the Patriotic Act. Snowden is guilty of breaking the national security laws he agreed to abide by when he joined the NSA, a fact that can't be mitigated by the nature of the despicable but perfectly legal policies he disclosed.

That is sort of it in a nutshell.

webmost

If Congress continues to approve these secretive turds, and anyone who steps in one is forbidden to say that their foot stinks, then how will we ever know when it's time to pick up our pooper scoopers and clean up the stinking yard?

Provided, that is, that the powers that be don't succeed in confiscating pooper scoopers first.

Vulchor

A sliipery (and $hit filled) slope indeed. Lol, remember the name to....the PATRIOT act. Ironic.

jthanatos

My question is when did dumping classified stuff to the media become the first step in whistleblowing instead of the last resort? Used to be when these guys came forward, they talked about exhausting all the official avenues first. And just pointed the reporters in the right directions to ask the hard questions. Now, it seems that anytime some people see something they don't like, they feel entitled to run straight to the papers and internet with every shred of data they can take with them in hand.

I'm not saying public outting is never needed, but just because you don't think the official and protected channels will work is no excuse to bypass them. A little too much glory hounding if you ask me.

phobicsquirrel

Sadly this admin has really turned up the heat on whistle blowing. I have no idea why Obama is such a hard ass on this. True he knows things, if not most things we do not however I do believe he campaigned (at least early on) on reigning in the powers that the bush admin had obtained through and because of 9-11. I really don't see him doing that and in a lot of ways he has increased it. which brings up another question, is the office of the president and congress above the law? I do think they are. Hell bush and his master have come out and admitted to things that would be illegal but nothing has been done. You have, sadly I might add a history of POTUS's and people in their admin committing all sort of high crimes, treason really but hell it's okay. The reagan campaign worked with iran to keep the hostages and because of that carter lost as an example.

The only way transparency will come out on these matter is if people like snowden come out of the shadows and sadly the way they are treated by this country not to mention the media I would be surprised if many will. Snowden knew he had to leave this country to do it, what does that tell you? Why is it in the term "national security" people turn a blind eye? I mean obama could order a 5er of hookers to the white house and label it NA! Sure that's funny but really where is the line. Sadly again, this is not a party line thing, both parties are wrong on this. I'm glad to see that the majority of people don't see him as a traitor but still there should be a national media blitz against the US on this. It also brings a nice light on what is a traitor and a terrorist? I mean sure we all know or have been told a person who is muslim is a terrorist but really that's BS. Most of the terror attacks in recent history have been right wing extremists and where is all the fear and govt agencies attacking them? With this current climate anyone can be a terrorist or a traitor and that is that. When is the time going to come when the 1st amendment is taken out completely and we will all be subject to the whims of the master at the top?

Already you have local police doing pretty much what they want in terms of arresting people. It's like martial law has already been made we just don't have the curfews yet and the tanks driving down the road. All of this, everything about the current climate of FEAR is destroying our way of life.

The_Kid

My prediction... Snowden will either be found dead, disappear (killed), or be caught and returned to the US and face charges of sedition & yes possibly treason. If tried he will be convicted and spend the rest of his live in a federal institution.
(however shortlived that may be)
In my limited understanding of the law and constitution governing treason, treason is not limited to only offenses committed during time of war.
One could also make a case that we are at war. War on terror,, Cold War, etc

RBeckom

phobicsquirrel:

Sadly this admin has really turned up the heat on whistle blowing. I have no idea why Obama is such a hard ass on this. True he knows things, if not most things we do not however I do believe he campaigned (at least early on) on reigning in the powers that the bush admin had obtained through and because of 9-11. I really don't see him doing that and in a lot of ways he has increased it. which brings up another question, is the office of the president and congress above the law? I do think they are. Hell bush and his master have come out and admitted to things that would be illegal but nothing has been done. You have, sadly I might add a history of POTUS's and people in their admin committing all sort of high crimes, treason really but hell it's okay. The reagan campaign worked with iran to keep the hostages and because of that carter lost as an example.

The only way transparency will come out on these matter is if people like snowden come out of the shadows and sadly the way they are treated by this country not to mention the media I would be surprised if many will. Snowden knew he had to leave this country to do it, what does that tell you? Why is it in the term "national security" people turn a blind eye? I mean obama could order a 5er of hookers to the white house and label it NA! Sure that's funny but really where is the line. Sadly again, this is not a party line thing, both parties are wrong on this. I'm glad to see that the majority of people don't see him as a traitor but still there should be a national media blitz against the US on this. It also brings a nice light on what is a traitor and a terrorist? I mean sure we all know or have been told a person who is muslim is a terrorist but really that's BS. Most of the terror attacks in recent history have been right wing extremists and where is all the fear and govt agencies attacking them? With this current climate anyone can be a terrorist or a traitor and that is that. When is the time going to come when the 1st amendment is taken out completely and we will all be subject to the whims of the master at the top?

Already you have local police doing pretty much what they want in terms of arresting people. It's like martial law has already been made we just don't have the curfews yet and the tanks driving down the road. All of this, everything about the current climate of FEAR is destroying our way of life.

THIS is the summation of the situation. Our rights and freedoms have been largely disbanded one by one under this administration. Ordinarily I steer clear of political views but now I see that our own government has gone too far in it's infallibility! If they are not to be held responsible for they're own actions, why should we?
Then what?
Anarchy rules!

webmost

Hype and chains.

pilgrimtex

I believe history has told us that every government over time has fallen into corruption and decay. It is a simple fact of thermal dynamics. The difference with our government is that our founding fathers foresaw this event happening and built into the constitution the right of the people to overthrow the government once it became corrupt and start anew. It is up to us the people to do this. or suffer the consequences of our own inaction. Unfortunately do we the people still have the fortitude to declare our government unconstitutional and form a new one or will another new government rise up in the world to replace us and take on the mantle we once had.

raisindot

pilgrimtex:

I believe history has told us that every government over time has fallen into corruption and decay. It is a simple fact of thermal dynamics. The difference with our government is that our founding fathers foresaw this event happening and built into the constitution the right of the people to overthrow the government once it became corrupt and start anew. It is up to us the people to do this. or suffer the consequences of our own inaction. Unfortunately do we the people still have the fortitude to declare our government unconstitutional and form a new one or will another new government rise up in the world to replace us and take on the mantle we once had.

Um, actually, no, the founding fathers did NOT built anything in the Constitution that allowed the government to be overthrown and started anew. It allowed a process for amending the Constitution to keep up with changing times or to correct outdated laws or language (such as that regarding slavery) but the whole point of the Constitution was to provide a framework for defining federal and state powers and using the representative process to define it further.

There is not one single amendment or phrase in the Constitution that grants either states or the people the right to overthrow the government and start anew. It's quite doubtful that Washington, Adams, and even Jefferson would have approved of a people's revolt to replace the Constitutional government and representative democracy with a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy, theocracy or feudalist state.

pilgrimtex

raisindot:

pilgrimtex:

I believe history has told us that every government over time has fallen into corruption and decay. It is a simple fact of thermal dynamics. The difference with our government is that our founding fathers foresaw this event happening and built into the constitution the right of the people to overthrow the government once it became corrupt and start anew. It is up to us the people to do this. or suffer the consequences of our own inaction. Unfortunately do we the people still have the fortitude to declare our government unconstitutional and form a new one or will another new government rise up in the world to replace us and take on the mantle we once had.

Um, actually, no, the founding fathers did NOT built anything in the Constitution that allowed the government to be overthrown and started anew. It allowed a process for amending the Constitution to keep up with changing times or to correct outdated laws or language (such as that regarding slavery) but the whole point of the Constitution was to provide a framework for defining federal and state powers and using the representative process to define it further.

There is not one single amendment or phrase in the Constitution that grants either states or the people the right to overthrow the government and start anew. It's quite doubtful that Washington, Adams, and even Jefferson would have approved of a people's revolt to replace the Constitutional government and representative democracy with a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy, theocracy or feudalist state.

It's called the 2nd Amendment.

Amos_Umwhat

pilgrimtex:

raisindot:

pilgrimtex:

I believe history has told us that every government over time has fallen into corruption and decay. It is a simple fact of thermal dynamics. The difference with our government is that our founding fathers foresaw this event happening and built into the constitution the right of the people to overthrow the government once it became corrupt and start anew. It is up to us the people to do this. or suffer the consequences of our own inaction. Unfortunately do we the people still have the fortitude to declare our government unconstitutional and form a new one or will another new government rise up in the world to replace us and take on the mantle we once had.

Um, actually, no, the founding fathers did NOT built anything in the Constitution that allowed the government to be overthrown and started anew. It allowed a process for amending the Constitution to keep up with changing times or to correct outdated laws or language (such as that regarding slavery) but the whole point of the Constitution was to provide a framework for defining federal and state powers and using the representative process to define it further.

There is not one single amendment or phrase in the Constitution that grants either states or the people the right to overthrow the government and start anew. It's quite doubtful that Washington, Adams, and even Jefferson would have approved of a people's revolt to replace the Constitutional government and representative democracy with a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy, theocracy or feudalist state.

It's called the 2nd Amendment.

And the purpose was to restore the Constitutional government and representative democracy that had become a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy, theocracy, or feudalist state.

Amos_Umwhat

RBeckom:

phobicsquirrel:

Sadly this admin has really turned up the heat on whistle blowing. I have no idea why Obama is such a hard ass on this. True he knows things, if not most things we do not however I do believe he campaigned (at least early on) on reigning in the powers that the bush admin had obtained through and because of 9-11. I really don't see him doing that and in a lot of ways he has increased it. which brings up another question, is the office of the president and congress above the law? I do think they are. Hell bush and his master have come out and admitted to things that would be illegal but nothing has been done. You have, sadly I might add a history of POTUS's and people in their admin committing all sort of high crimes, treason really but hell it's okay. The reagan campaign worked with iran to keep the hostages and because of that carter lost as an example.

The only way transparency will come out on these matter is if people like snowden come out of the shadows and sadly the way they are treated by this country not to mention the media I would be surprised if many will. Snowden knew he had to leave this country to do it, what does that tell you? Why is it in the term "national security" people turn a blind eye? I mean obama could order a 5er of hookers to the white house and label it NA! Sure that's funny but really where is the line. Sadly again, this is not a party line thing, both parties are wrong on this. I'm glad to see that the majority of people don't see him as a traitor but still there should be a national media blitz against the US on this. It also brings a nice light on what is a traitor and a terrorist? I mean sure we all know or have been told a person who is muslim is a terrorist but really that's BS. Most of the terror attacks in recent history have been right wing extremists and where is all the fear and govt agencies attacking them? With this current climate anyone can be a terrorist or a traitor and that is that. When is the time going to come when the 1st amendment is taken out completely and we will all be subject to the whims of the master at the top?

Already you have local police doing pretty much what they want in terms of arresting people. It's like martial law has already been made we just don't have the curfews yet and the tanks driving down the road. All of this, everything about the current climate of FEAR is destroying our way of life.

THIS is the summation of the situation. Our rights and freedoms have been largely disbanded one by one under this administration. Ordinarily I steer clear of political views but now I see that our own government has gone too far in it's infallibility! If they are not to be held responsible for they're own actions, why should we?
Then what?
Anarchy rules!

It is worthy of note that this administration couldn't have done so had it not been for the steps taken by the previous administration to consolidate power in the presidency, and destroy our constitution via the PATRIOT act.

raisindot

pilgrimtex:

raisindot:

pilgrimtex:

I believe history has told us that every government over time has fallen into corruption and decay. It is a simple fact of thermal dynamics. The difference with our government is that our founding fathers foresaw this event happening and built into the constitution the right of the people to overthrow the government once it became corrupt and start anew. It is up to us the people to do this. or suffer the consequences of our own inaction. Unfortunately do we the people still have the fortitude to declare our government unconstitutional and form a new one or will another new government rise up in the world to replace us and take on the mantle we once had.

Um, actually, no, the founding fathers did NOT built anything in the Constitution that allowed the government to be overthrown and started anew. It allowed a process for amending the Constitution to keep up with changing times or to correct outdated laws or language (such as that regarding slavery) but the whole point of the Constitution was to provide a framework for defining federal and state powers and using the representative process to define it further.

There is not one single amendment or phrase in the Constitution that grants either states or the people the right to overthrow the government and start anew. It's quite doubtful that Washington, Adams, and even Jefferson would have approved of a people's revolt to replace the Constitutional government and representative democracy with a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy, theocracy or feudalist state.

It's called the 2nd Amendment.

Sorry, but there's nothing in the 2nd Amendment that mentions any right to violently or nonviolently overthrow the government and there has never been a single court decision that has interpreted the 2nd Amendment as giving citizens that right. While some of the founding father did believe the 2nd Amendment was designed to protect citizens against government tyranny, it wasn't an opinion shared by all. Certainly not by John Adams, Hamilton or even George Washington, who came out of retirement near the end of his life to lead a federal army specifically created to put down a rebellion by heavily armed citizens who were trying to overthrow the government.

In fact, throughout the history of the U.S. the courts have ALWAYS sided against such an interpretation in cases where individuals tried to overthrow the government, from the assassins who killed presidents to the anarchists of the post WWI period to left-wing radicals and right-wing militias.

RBeckom

Amos Umwhat:

RBeckom:

phobicsquirrel:

Sadly this admin has really turned up the heat on whistle blowing. I have no idea why Obama is such a hard ass on this. True he knows things, if not most things we do not however I do believe he campaigned (at least early on) on reigning in the powers that the bush admin had obtained through and because of 9-11. I really don't see him doing that and in a lot of ways he has increased it. which brings up another question, is the office of the president and congress above the law? I do think they are. Hell bush and his master have come out and admitted to things that would be illegal but nothing has been done. You have, sadly I might add a history of POTUS's and people in their admin committing all sort of high crimes, treason really but hell it's okay. The reagan campaign worked with iran to keep the hostages and because of that carter lost as an example.

The only way transparency will come out on these matter is if people like snowden come out of the shadows and sadly the way they are treated by this country not to mention the media I would be surprised if many will. Snowden knew he had to leave this country to do it, what does that tell you? Why is it in the term "national security" people turn a blind eye? I mean obama could order a 5er of hookers to the white house and label it NA! Sure that's funny but really where is the line. Sadly again, this is not a party line thing, both parties are wrong on this. I'm glad to see that the majority of people don't see him as a traitor but still there should be a national media blitz against the US on this. It also brings a nice light on what is a traitor and a terrorist? I mean sure we all know or have been told a person who is muslim is a terrorist but really that's BS. Most of the terror attacks in recent history have been right wing extremists and where is all the fear and govt agencies attacking them? With this current climate anyone can be a terrorist or a traitor and that is that. When is the time going to come when the 1st amendment is taken out completely and we will all be subject to the whims of the master at the top?

Already you have local police doing pretty much what they want in terms of arresting people. It's like martial law has already been made we just don't have the curfews yet and the tanks driving down the road. All of this, everything about the current climate of FEAR is destroying our way of life.

THIS is the summation of the situation. Our rights and freedoms have been largely disbanded one by one under this administration. Ordinarily I steer clear of political views but now I see that our own government has gone too far in it's infallibility! If they are not to be held responsible for they're own actions, why should we?
Then what?
Anarchy rules!

It is worthy of note that this administration couldn't have done so had it not been for the steps taken by the previous administration to consolidate power in the presidency, and destroy our constitution via the PATRIOT act.

True but the amount of finance was promised to be drastically cut on overseas missions. What has become of that promise? What country will be next on the chopping block? Comments and promises are easily made, but keeping them can sometimes be a momentous task as such is the situation as we find ourselves in now. What was started by other administrations has to be eventually stopped before our country becomes bankrupt like others that have already fallen. Long term goals seem to be forgotten with our new administration and this my friend is what I find objectionable. We have thousand's starving here at home and yet find it nessary to spend billions over seas to protect our oil supply "pipeline".

webmost

Hey, it's always George Bush's fault.

webmost

Oh, wait a minute ... When a guy wins by promising change, how do you excuse no change by saying it's his predecessor's fault?

webmost

Never mind. No change is all George Bush's fault too.

raisindot

webmost:

Hey, it's always George Bush's fault.

Bush started these nefarious Patriot Act practices, but the Obama administration has certainly expanded these practices exponentially--and unacceptably.

However, I don't believe that these actions, as reprehensible as they are, have taken away our rights. After all, the fact that we're sitting here debating all sides of the issues proves that our freedom of expression is still protected. The fact that so many web sites and blogs and newspapers and FOX News can freely vent their wrath against the administration without being shut down demonstrates the freedom of the press is still alive and well. The fact that no gun control legislation has passed or will pass and the government troops haven't swooped down to confiscate legally purchased weapons demonstrates that there are no coordinated attempts to take away 2nd Amendment rights. The fact that churches and other religious institutions whose preachers rail against these policies haven't had their tax-deductible status taken away and haven't been shut down by the army demonstrates that the government hasn't tried to take away freedom of religion. That hundreds of thousands of people can still protest the administration's policies without fear of being rounded up and sent to jail and held there indefinitely without a trial proves that no one is trying to take away the right to congregate.

Granted, what is being taken away is our right to privacy as defined in the 4th Amendment, but 4th amendment rights have been eroded so much in recent years that the average citizen is more likely to be pulled over and searched by a local cop who doesn't like the color of their skin than have the feds closely monitor their phone calls. That this administration has used these eavesdropping methods to target certain individuals (i.e., AP reporters) is absolutely reprehensible. So what is the solution? Write to your congressmen and tell them you want the Patriotic Act to be scrapped or radically altered or replaced with laws that tightly define the surveillance limits. And what is the chance that Congress will act upon citizens' requests to do so? Next to none, but the majority of our Congressmen in both sides either supports these measures or are too afraid to be labeled as "anti-security" for opposing them.

RBeckom

webmost:

Hey, it's always George Bush's fault.

Of that we all can agree!
:-)
But let us also let Obama take his portion Too.

RBeckom

raisindot:

webmost:

Hey, it's always George Bush's fault.

Bush started these nefarious Patriot Act practices, but the Obama administration has certainly expanded these practices exponentially--and unacceptably.

However, I don't believe that these actions, as reprehensible as they are, have taken away our rights. After all, the fact that we're sitting here debating all sides of the issues proves that our freedom of expression is still protected. The fact that so many web sites and blogs and newspapers and FOX News can freely vent their wrath against the administration without being shut down demonstrates the freedom of the press is still alive and well. The fact that no gun control legislation has passed or will pass and the government troops haven't swooped down to confiscate legally purchased weapons demonstrates that there are no coordinated attempts to take away 2nd Amendment rights. The fact that churches and other religious institutions whose preachers rail against these policies haven't had their tax-deductible status taken away and haven't been shut down by the army demonstrates that the government hasn't tried to take away freedom of religion. That hundreds of thousands of people can still protest the administration's policies without fear of being rounded up and sent to jail and held there indefinitely without a trial proves that no one is trying to take away the right to congregate.

Granted, what is being taken away is our right to privacy as defined in the 4th Amendment, but 4th amendment rights have been eroded so much in recent years that the average citizen is more likely to be pulled over and searched by a local cop who doesn't like the color of their skin than have the feds closely monitor their phone calls. That this administration has used these eavesdropping methods to target certain individuals (i.e., AP reporters) is absolutely reprehensible. So what is the solution? Write to your congressmen and tell them you want the Patriotic Act to be scrapped or radically altered or replaced with laws that tightly define the surveillance limits. And what is the chance that Congress will act upon citizens' requests to do so? Next to none, but the majority of our Congressmen in both sides either supports these measures or are too afraid to be labeled as "anti-security" for opposing them.

Write a summation of what has been presented here and send it to the president..........
Black Limo's will shortly arrive and your opinion will change drastically and with due haste my friend.
You speak of freedoms our ancestor's had, not what we "enjoy" today.

pilgrimtex

We still have religious freedom and tax exemption? LMDAO. Tax exemption but the preachers mouth is gagged. There are a number of churches talking about dropping tax exemption because of it and I'm for no tax exemptions for churches in exchange for freedom.
As for all Bush's fault? We're all at fault for voting in all the dead beats we have.
As for present politics. Call it Chicago style.
Who's at fault? We all are.
Who's at fault? Want to guess?
We all are.
So if you want to change things; Get off your fat posteriors, pull up your big girl panties and get active
Otherwise SHUT THE "F" UP!!!!!