I have no problem with religion when used for the good-----keeping people from hurting one another, giving people a sense of greater purpose, stopping people from fearing death, allowing us to help or "brothers" etc. I do have a problem with god hates gays, the earth isnt billions of years old, some dude walks on water, guy was born of a virgin with 12 discliples-----I mean cmon, these are the same stories every other "religion" has told from Egypt to the far east for thousands of years before this Jesus guy was born. Even Zeus was born from a virgin..........So if you need to it to keep yourself happy, by all means I have no issue with the delusions---I have delusions of my own with gambling and other things. But when you start spouting it off like a tested, peer reviewed, scientific law...I have problems.
Is science exact? I see and read papers disproving others all the time, science by it's very nature is an ever changing and evolving, yes I said evolving, entity. If this were not true then men would be as God and all knowing! Who among us claims to know everything? Certainly not I.
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
Are you saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you can no longer sin? Or that you are no longer under the law? Or both? -
This can get really really deep for a thread but here goes: According to the Christian Bible, Sin entered the world through Adam. Though man was fallen and Heaven's door was closed there was no accountabilities for man since there was no law to accused him. Though God was not happy with mankind and made it known to them through the flood etc. Still there was nothing to accuse man of breaking any commandments or laws.
The law came into being by God through Moses and it wasn't just 10 commandments. It was an entire series of how man should live. (look it up). These laws are so far outreaching that it was impossible for fallen man to abide by every one and not be guilty of breaking one. They all carried the same punishment as well, no matter how trivial. This was done so the law would make mankind look to a messiah a redeemer who would free them from the law. They were guided by the prophets in their search.
A sacrifice once and for all had to be made to overcome the law. Annual sacrifices written into the law only covered you for 1 year. We needed someone blameless without sin who could satisfy the law. Since no one is that there was no way to except God who is incapable of sin.
That is why the Holy Spirit had to come down to earth and impregnate Mary with the seed of God. She did not have to be sinless because it is the Father (genetically speaking) that passes on the blood etc to the child. That is why Jesus is both man and God. He is also sinless because the sin is passed down by the father of the child since it was Adam's sin.
We now had a sacrifice that could satisfy the law of sin and death and free mankind of this law for those who choose to have Jesus be their savior and Lord. In other words like changing citizenship. When you do The spirit of God joins with our spirit and we are now children and heirs of the living God.
The law which still exists no longer pertains to those who are heirs to Heaven.
Therefore there is no law and no more sin. However; Though you have free reign it is your spirit in fellowship with God's Holy Spirit that guides you. and the love that you feel to God for what He has done. (When the light bulb flicks on) and you realize the Love God holds you with and the sacrifice made for you, you loose that mentality of "what can I get away with" You become totally free without the worry of sin and even though the flesh is still dead the spirit is a new man and sinless. Capice?
So, do you just disregard all the law statements Jesus made? The law is more than just the 10 commandments and levitical law. Be fruitful and multiply is law. Do not eat from that tree is law. Love your neighbor is law. Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit teaching them all that Jesus commanded is law. And if you are no longer worried about sin, does that mean if you do sin you stop being Christian? Or are those that struggle with sin not Christian? Was Paul not a Christian?
Very little true knowledge about the Bible was reveled by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts. Jesus died for all of our sins and yet God still gives us all a scapegoat. Do you know of the first true scapegoat? If not then you certainly need to study. Are we held accountable for our sins? Certainly, that is where Hell comes into play. Can we avoid the abyss? Again, yes, through the sacrifice made by our Savior Jesus Christ.
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
Are you saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you can no longer sin? Or that you are no longer under the law? Or both? -
This can get really really deep for a thread but here goes: According to the Christian Bible, Sin entered the world through Adam. Though man was fallen and Heaven's door was closed there was no accountabilities for man since there was no law to accused him. Though God was not happy with mankind and made it known to them through the flood etc. Still there was nothing to accuse man of breaking any commandments or laws.
The law came into being by God through Moses and it wasn't just 10 commandments. It was an entire series of how man should live. (look it up). These laws are so far outreaching that it was impossible for fallen man to abide by every one and not be guilty of breaking one. They all carried the same punishment as well, no matter how trivial. This was done so the law would make mankind look to a messiah a redeemer who would free them from the law. They were guided by the prophets in their search.
A sacrifice once and for all had to be made to overcome the law. Annual sacrifices written into the law only covered you for 1 year. We needed someone blameless without sin who could satisfy the law. Since no one is that there was no way to except God who is incapable of sin.
That is why the Holy Spirit had to come down to earth and impregnate Mary with the seed of God. She did not have to be sinless because it is the Father (genetically speaking) that passes on the blood etc to the child. That is why Jesus is both man and God. He is also sinless because the sin is passed down by the father of the child since it was Adam's sin.
We now had a sacrifice that could satisfy the law of sin and death and free mankind of this law for those who choose to have Jesus be their savior and Lord. In other words like changing citizenship. When you do The spirit of God joins with our spirit and we are now children and heirs of the living God.
The law which still exists no longer pertains to those who are heirs to Heaven.
Therefore there is no law and no more sin. However; Though you have free reign it is your spirit in fellowship with God's Holy Spirit that guides you. and the love that you feel to God for what He has done. (When the light bulb flicks on) and you realize the Love God holds you with and the sacrifice made for you, you loose that mentality of "what can I get away with" You become totally free without the worry of sin and even though the flesh is still dead the spirit is a new man and sinless. Capice?
So, do you just disregard all the law statements Jesus made? The law is more than just the 10 commandments and levitical law. Be fruitful and multiply is law. Do not eat from that tree is law. Love your neighbor is law. Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit teaching them all that Jesus commanded is law. And if you are no longer worried about sin, does that mean if you do sin you stop being Christian? Or are those that struggle with sin not Christian? Was Paul not a Christian?
I would venture to guess that much of this you may already know, as you seem quite knowledgeable,, Im sure Pilgrimtex will answer your questions but much of this can be found in Romans, Romans 8 comes to mind,, and Romans 6. BTW good questions
Very little true knowledge about the Bible was reveled by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts.
Do share. Anything particular I should study? Just read the Bible as a whole? None of what I said disagrees with your questions. Not sure what you are driving at. I mean, everything I said is correct. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior. I was asking questions to try and understand where this theology was arrived at by pilgrim, whether we actually had a difference in doctrine, or merely in terminology and expression. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law. But we still should be trying to follow the law. To sin no more, and to repent when we do sin. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior.
So, do you just disregard all the law statements Jesus made? The law is more than just the 10 commandments and levitical law. Be fruitful and multiply is law. Do not eat from that tree is law. Love your neighbor is law. Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit teaching them all that Jesus commanded is law. And if you are no longer worried about sin, does that mean if you do sin you stop being Christian? Or are those that struggle with sin not Christian? Was Paul not a Christian?
I said this was a really really deep subject so let me try to explain:
I have 2 girls and 3 Grandkids. Guess I'm multiplying.
I have no hatred against anyone race, color, creed etc etc.
I founded 501(c)(3)s to help people. Guess I love them.
I'm sharing my beliefs here where thousands can read them. Guess I'm spreading the word.
My flesh is week and the world is strong. But there is no sin for my spirit. The love of God to me through His Son helps me and takes care of me. And I love the Father through His Son Jesus.
There is only one way to stop being a Christian and that is to openly state that the sacrifice Jesus made for me is anathema and He is no longer your savior. By the way you can only do that once. Jesus is not gonna repeat his sacrifice for you again. He only had to do it once.
Did I not say the flesh is week? The term sin means that which offends God in a paraphrase. But my Spirit is alive even though my flesh is dead and corrupt. That's why we will receive a new body. One that is alive. Yea!!
I draw from another piece of my paper:
Romans 8:1-17
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. NKJV
Therefore:
The Spirit of God lives in me. I am now the lamp of His love and His life projects from me. I am a new creature created as a slave to the Spirit of my Father as a son and heir with my brother Christ that as I suffer with Him I am also glorified with Him. For my bond of slavery is not of fear but love. To understand the love my God has for me and the things He has in store for me overcomes any and all ties that would pull me back to the slavery of death. Though my physical body which is decaying daily suffers from the draws of this world, my inner being is nurtured and grows with ever more glory free from the pain of sin and death.
Very little true knowledge about the Bible was reveled by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts.
Do share. Anything particular I should study? Just read the Bible as a whole? None of what I said disagrees with your questions. Not sure what you are driving at. I mean, everything I said is correct. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior. I was asking questions to try and understand where this theology was arrived at by pilgrim, whether we actually had a difference in doctrine, or merely in terminology and expression. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law. But we still should be trying to follow the law. To sin no more, and to repent when we do sin. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior.
You misunderstood my words my friend. I ask a particular question for a reason. Many talk a good talk but to seek the answers each for they're own is the way to true grace. I wanted nothing more than to hear of your beliefs moreover than to here someone else explain what they believe to you.
Where exactly do you stand on the laws of Moses and Leviticus? Numbers also tells of many of God's wills and laws. Can we as a people live in todays society under these laws? Or more to the point, did not God give us more than one way to live a Godly life.
Do not be put off by my comments as I learn as I go. Each and every day I study the Word and try to interpret what it means to me as should all.
Very little true knowledge about the Bible was reveled by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts.
Do share. Anything particular I should study? Just read the Bible as a whole? None of what I said disagrees with your questions. Not sure what you are driving at. I mean, everything I said is correct. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior. I was asking questions to try and understand where this theology was arrived at by pilgrim, whether we actually had a difference in doctrine, or merely in terminology and expression. Those are law statements. We still fall under the law. We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ apart from the works of the law. But we still should be trying to follow the law. To sin no more, and to repent when we do sin. The law and our inability to fulfill it shows us our need for a savior.
You misunderstood my words my friend. I ask a particular question for a reason. Many talk a good talk but to seek the answers each for they're own is the way to true grace. I wanted nothing more than to hear of your beliefs moreover than to here someone else explain what they believe to you.
Where exactly do you stand on the laws of Moses and Leviticus? Numbers also tells of many of God's wills and laws. Can we as a people live in todays society under these laws? Or more to the point, did not God give us more than one way to live a Godly life.
Do not be put off by my comments as I learn as I go. Each and every day I study the Word and try to interpret what it means to me as should all.
The law is still in effect and will be in effect till the end for those who have not come to that decision for Christ or rejected Him. Period. For those in Christ the law has no more power over us. Though our bodies are corrupt and will become worm fodder; it is our spirit that lives free from the law and when our body dies our spirit will continue to live and will receive a new body. That's good stuff!!!
For lennon - Duh du dudu du
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
I absolutely love this post as every time before when the Word has been mentioned it was ridiculed and blasphemed! Pilgrimtex, you are sent to us to bear witness and teach and to that I testify!
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
I read and I understand your point on the issue. In my defense a lot of my study's come from the 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Bible because I try to study that which has not been corrupted by the hand of recent man. I feel that too much has been lost due to translation in the latter years.
The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.
My confession:
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.
I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
In light of recent events - terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with, 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it. No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.
My confession:
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.
I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
In light of recent events - terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with, 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it. No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.
My confession:
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.
I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
In light of recent events - terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with, 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it. No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
My Best Regards, Honestly and Respectfully,
Ben Stein
Thanks for postin,,, hilarious,, wonder if i can claim disability due to my mental health issues!! ;o)
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
I read and I understand your point on the issue. In my defense a lot of my study's come from the 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Bible because I try to study that which has not been corrupted by the hand of recent man. I feel that too much has been lost due to translation in the latter years.
I took a day unto myself for Soul searching on the matters that have been brought forth and here's what was reveled to me:
If we argue the word of the Load Our God then we blaspheme by default. The Word is written, yet we argue it's point and meaning. The Word as you stated is THE Law, period. With that in mind I have decided to discontinue writing on the forums.
Not because of anything anyone said, moreover because I have TRESPASSED AGAINST GOD BY ARGUING THE WORD OF HIS LAW. This iniquity I alone must bare unto myself.
I plan to continue reading this forum because there's always something new to learn here. Good bye: Rodney.
Man, I'd really love for this to get back to Snowden, political views, etc. Can only stomach so much religious debate. I was really enjoying this read until the last 3 pages.
But since we're here. I had an epiphany the other day after getting pulled into a religious debate at work. Really didn't want to be in that conversation but they guys who baited me into it knew it was the only way to make the conversation truly interesting.
The epiphany came to me as I was driving home from work:
The primary difference between the man who believes and the man who does not believe is that both have questions that do not have answers and one of them is fine with that.
Man, I'd really love for this to get back to Snowden, political views, etc. Can only stomach so much religious debate. I was really enjoying this read until the last 3 pages.
But since we're here. I had an epiphany the other day after getting pulled into a religious debate at work. Really didn't want to be in that conversation but they guys who baited me into it knew it was the only way to make the conversation truly interesting.
The epiphany came to me as I was driving home from work:
The primary difference between the man who believes and the man who does not believe is that both have questions that do not have answers and one of them is fine with that.
I don't have to believe, I know. Not everything, but, I know beyond all shadow of doubt. Prior to knowledge, I did not believe. I thought it was all faeries and unicorns and old people who were scared. I was wrong. I know.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Man, I'd really love for this to get back to Snowden, political views, etc. Can only stomach so much religious debate. I was really enjoying this read until the last 3 pages.
But since we're here. I had an epiphany the other day after getting pulled into a religious debate at work. Really didn't want to be in that conversation but they guys who baited me into it knew it was the only way to make the conversation truly interesting.
The epiphany came to me as I was driving home from work:
The primary difference between the man who believes and the man who does not believe is that both have questions that do not have answers and one of them is fine with that.
I don't have to believe, I know. Not everything, but, I know beyond all shadow of doubt. Prior to knowledge, I did not believe. I thought it was all faeries and unicorns and old people who were scared. I was wrong. I know.
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
I read and I understand your point on the issue. In my defense a lot of my study's come from the 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Bible because I try to study that which has not been corrupted by the hand of recent man. I feel that too much has been lost due to translation in the latter years.
I took a day unto myself for Soul searching on the matters that have been brought forth and here's what was reveled to me:
If we argue the word of the Load Our God then we blaspheme by default. The Word is written, yet we argue it's point and meaning. The Word as you stated is THE Law, period. With that in mind I have decided to discontinue writing on the forums.
Not because of anything anyone said, moreover because I have TRESPASSED AGAINST GOD BY ARGUING THE WORD OF HIS LAW. This iniquity I alone must bare unto myself.
I plan to continue reading this forum because there's always something new to learn here. Good bye: Rodney.
Rodney, I think I now understand your other post, Im not gonna tell ya what you feel in your heart, but I will say I dont think you tresspassed against God, or blasphemed. Even if you feel you did, you know you are forgiven even before you ask for forgiveness. Nohing wrong in having passion for what you believe in. Take care
At two times God made retribution for the people, one through the scapegoat with Aaron the preist and the other through Jesus Christ. My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:6-7 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
I read and I understand your point on the issue. In my defense a lot of my study's come from the 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Bible because I try to study that which has not been corrupted by the hand of recent man. I feel that too much has been lost due to translation in the latter years.
I took a day unto myself for Soul searching on the matters that have been brought forth and here's what was reveled to me:
If we argue the word of the Load Our God then we blaspheme by default. The Word is written, yet we argue it's point and meaning. The Word as you stated is THE Law, period. With that in mind I have decided to discontinue writing on the forums.
Not because of anything anyone said, moreover because I have TRESPASSED AGAINST GOD BY ARGUING THE WORD OF HIS LAW. This iniquity I alone must bare unto myself.
I plan to continue reading this forum because there's always something new to learn here. Good bye: Rodney.
Rodney, I think I now understand your other post, Im not gonna tell ya what you feel in your heart, but I will say I dont think you tresspassed against God, or blasphemed. Even if you feel you did, you know you are forgiven even before you ask for forgiveness. Nohing wrong in having passion for what you believe in. Take care
We see in part because we know in part until that time when all things are made known unto us.
There is only one blaspheme to the believer and that is the one that rejects his/her salvation.
All else is because we know in part. At the final time Christ will wipe away our tears and we will dine with Him. I wish you well my Brother. I hope you will return to grace us with your wisdom and wit one day soon.
I generally don't get involved in random religious debates (ESPECIALLY on the internet) because they are usually unproductive. I respect those who believe, but I was raised in a devout Protestant household and saw too much of church people to have a positive view of organized religion. there are a couple of areas of modern religion I take some issue with:
1. "Judge not lest ye be judged," too few of those who claim holiness seem to remember this key tennet.
2. The idea that doubt is a bad thing, that questions are not allowed. Did Jesus chastise Thomas for doubting, for asking for proof? Not in the versions I have read which casts the modern statement of "I don't believe, I KNOW" in a bad light for me. No one "knows," they believe and that is perfectly fine with me, that was what was preached if you look at the literal words (even discounting probable mistranaslations). faith, not knowledge, was the key.
3. Another related to point #1, "Before you seek to remove the speck of dust from your brother's eye first remove the plank from your own." Especially relevant in the marriage debates. Divorce and infidelity is rampant in American Christianity (my parents' church is shocking in this area), perhaps that should be addressed as the greater societal problem before passing more amendments related to same-sex marriage, it isn't homosexuality that is the greatest threat to the institution of marriage.
4. "Whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me" Doesn't just mean the good things get counted, the level of hate I hear from church people continues to amaze me. I worked with the homelessness initiatives in my county and of the 15 churches we approached for help only two stepped forward, each of the others answered with some variation of "THOSE people are not suitable for our building." Made me think of the old saying "as welcome as a **** in church." If the whores and homeless are not welcome in church, who should be?
I have always thought that there is a fairly sharp line between "church people" and "Christians," sometimes they are one in the same but not always. One of the big clues is that if you have to tell someone you go to church, I think you can see which camp you fall into. Often when I raise these points someone will mention the idea that the Devil can quote scripture when it suits him, but that is the easy answer used to dodge accepting responsibility.
I respect those who believe when they follow, or at least make a serious effort to follow, those beliefs and do not try to force those on anyone else either through law or volume of shouts, but by modeling their beliefs. However, I find those in short supply in modern religion though I keep looking. The one person who came closest to getting me to consider going back to organized religion was my history of western religions professor. He came into our class and stated his beliefs and said "This is what I believe, I don't KNOW it to be true because I am still alive and have not experienced the afterlife. I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong." He was an Episcopalian priest. It is similar to a Jewish tradition a friend who was a Rabbi told me: "All questions are valid, all answers questionable. Truth is often found in discussion rather than resolution."
Phew, longest stream of thought I've put down in a while. And I do want to be clear, I respect those who believe and I frankly do not know whether I believe in a higher power or not I just know that I cannot accept the behavior I was shown growing up in religion and what I have since seen as being what Jesus intended. As for the "America is a Christian/Atheist Country" debate, I believe it is neither. It was intended to be neutral, we are to be free to believe or not as we so choose. I take equal issue with either extreme.
I generally don't get involved in random religious debates (ESPECIALLY on the internet) because they are usually unproductive. I respect those who believe, but I was raised in a devout Protestant household and saw too much of church people to have a positive view of organized religion. there are a couple of areas of modern religion I take some issue with:
1. "Judge not lest ye be judged," too few of those who claim holiness seem to remember this key tennet.
2. The idea that doubt is a bad thing, that questions are not allowed. Did Jesus chastise Thomas for doubting, for asking for proof? Not in the versions I have read which casts the modern statement of "I don't believe, I KNOW" in a bad light for me. No one "knows," they believe and that is perfectly fine with me, that was what was preached if you look at the literal words (even discounting probable mistranaslations). faith, not knowledge, was the key.
3. Another related to point #1, "Before you seek to remove the speck of dust from your brother's eye first remove the plank from your own." Especially relevant in the marriage debates. Divorce and infidelity is rampant in American Christianity (my parents' church is shocking in this area), perhaps that should be addressed as the greater societal problem before passing more amendments related to same-sex marriage, it isn't homosexuality that is the greatest threat to the institution of marriage.
4. "Whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me" Doesn't just mean the good things get counted, the level of hate I hear from church people continues to amaze me. I worked with the homelessness initiatives in my county and of the 15 churches we approached for help only two stepped forward, each of the others answered with some variation of "THOSE people are not suitable for our building." Made me think of the old saying "as welcome as a **** in church." If the whores and homeless are not welcome in church, who should be?
I have always thought that there is a fairly sharp line between "church people" and "Christians," sometimes they are one in the same but not always. One of the big clues is that if you have to tell someone you go to church, I think you can see which camp you fall into. Often when I raise these points someone will mention the idea that the Devil can quote scripture when it suits him, but that is the easy answer used to dodge accepting responsibility.
I respect those who believe when they follow, or at least make a serious effort to follow, those beliefs and do not try to force those on anyone else either through law or volume of shouts, but by modeling their beliefs. However, I find those in short supply in modern religion though I keep looking. The one person who came closest to getting me to consider going back to organized religion was my history of western religions professor. He came into our class and stated his beliefs and said "This is what I believe, I don't KNOW it to be true because I am still alive and have not experienced the afterlife. I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong." He was an Episcopalian priest. It is similar to a Jewish tradition a friend who was a Rabbi told me: "All questions are valid, all answers questionable. Truth is often found in discussion rather than resolution."
Phew, longest stream of thought I've put down in a while. And I do want to be clear, I respect those who believe and I frankly do not know whether I believe in a higher power or not I just know that I cannot accept the behavior I was shown growing up in religion and what I have since seen as being what Jesus intended. As for the "America is a Christian/Atheist Country" debate, I believe it is neither. It was intended to be neutral, we are to be free to believe or not as we so choose. I take equal issue with either extreme.
You make very good points. I shouldn't have let myself get into this, but I did, and saying "I know" sounds arrogant, if you don't know what I know, so some clarification may be in order, at least for me.
First, I'm with you regarding organized religion. It isn't bad, per se, but every time someone says "this is the one and only way and everything else is wrong" , I think they're wrong. What we're discussing is beyond the understanding of mortal man, and even those who see, know, the most, still see, know imperfectly. Therefore, no one here can justifiably say "this is the ONLY way".
An example might be the English speaking Christian who pronounces the King James Version of the Bible to be the only uncorrupted truth. Nonsense. Most of the corruptions occurred about 1300 years before King James was born. Some very interesting work has been done on this by the following authors:
Bart Ehrman
Geza Vermes
Tom Harpur
Elaine Pagels If you're interested, they can explain much better than I can, they spent decades doing the research. One of the reasons I often avoid these conversations is that while I know Jesus Christ to be God's messiah, the living Christ, I do not accept all the propagandistic corruptions concerning his life story. Just because I don't accept the story as written, does not mean that the truth is not within it. To explain farther would require lengthy face to face discussions, and considerable reading.
When I say "I Know", I'm referring to experiences I've had that removed all doubt. Doubt is necessary, there can be no faith before doubt. I've felt the power. I've had my physical, emotional, and spiritual existence change in a moment of time. I've had the questions answered in very real and certain terms that cannot be denied by one who's experienced the answer.
Walt gave an example of something that happened to him in an earlier response, and one could doubt him. One could say "oh, that's coincidence and he reads into it that interpretation". Or, one could ask "why have these things not happened to me?", or "why wasn't MY prayer answered?". I believe Walt, because I know. Why hasn't something happened for someone else? I don't know.
What I do know is that there is spiritual reality. We are part of it. The tree cannot see you, doesn't know you prune it, water it, remove weeds, or neglect it. Do you exist? There are levels, we live on ours.
Science only describes creation, and imperfectly at that, but so far it has only discovered that the creation stories are true, even if they were written for an audience that didn't understand atomic theories and the relativity of light speed to time.
And so, I know what I've seen, felt, lived, watched occur to myself and others, it is real. HE is real. I know.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Oh, and Clearly Suspect's right, we should get back to Snowden. What will the Russians do with him?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
He has become a political football in a Rugby tournament of global politics. He has brought to light issues but really; will they change? Our Gov't has sunk too far into corruption and there is too long a time till the next election cycle to feign any puny attempts to change it.
Comments
Is science exact?
I see and read papers disproving others all the time, science by it's very nature is an ever changing and evolving, yes I said evolving, entity.
If this were not true then men would be as God and all knowing!
Who among us claims to know everything?
Certainly not I.
Very little true knowledge about the Bible was reveled by your comments, perhaps you should study more and then formulate your thoughts.
Jesus died for all of our sins and yet God still gives us all a scapegoat.
Do you know of the first true scapegoat?
If not then you certainly need to study.
Are we held accountable for our sins?
Certainly, that is where Hell comes into play.
Can we avoid the abyss?
Again, yes, through the sacrifice made by our Savior Jesus Christ.
BTW good questions
I said this was a really really deep subject so let me try to explain:
I have 2 girls and 3 Grandkids. Guess I'm multiplying.
I have no hatred against anyone race, color, creed etc etc.
I founded 501(c)(3)s to help people. Guess I love them.
I'm sharing my beliefs here where thousands can read them. Guess I'm spreading the word.
My flesh is week and the world is strong. But there is no sin for my spirit. The love of God to me through His Son helps me and takes care of me. And I love the Father through His Son Jesus.
There is only one way to stop being a Christian and that is to openly state that the sacrifice Jesus made for me is anathema and He is no longer your savior. By the way you can only do that once. Jesus is not gonna repeat his sacrifice for you again. He only had to do it once.
Did I not say the flesh is week? The term sin means that which offends God in a paraphrase. But my Spirit is alive even though my flesh is dead and corrupt. That's why we will receive a new body. One that is alive. Yea!!
I draw from another piece of my paper:
Romans 8:1-17
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. NKJV
Therefore:
The Spirit of God lives in me. I am now the lamp of His love and His life projects from me. I am a new creature created as a slave to the Spirit of my Father as a son and heir with my brother Christ that as I suffer with Him I am also glorified with Him. For my bond of slavery is not of fear but love. To understand the love my God has for me and the things He has in store for me overcomes any and all ties that would pull me back to the slavery of death. Though my physical body which is decaying daily suffers from the draws of this world, my inner being is nurtured and grows with ever more glory free from the pain of sin and death.
You misunderstood my words my friend.
I ask a particular question for a reason.
Many talk a good talk but to seek the answers each for they're own is the way to true grace.
I wanted nothing more than to hear of your beliefs moreover than to here someone else explain what they believe to you.
Where exactly do you stand on the laws of Moses and Leviticus?
Numbers also tells of many of God's wills and laws.
Can we as a people live in todays society under these laws?
Or more to the point, did not God give us more than one way to live a Godly life.
Do not be put off by my comments as I learn as I go.
Each and every day I study the Word and try to interpret what it means to me as should all.
John Lennon
John Lennon
God is love.
:-)
The law is still in effect and will be in effect till the end for those who have not come to that decision for Christ or rejected Him. Period. For those in Christ the law has no more power over us. Though our bodies are corrupt and will become worm fodder; it is our spirit that lives free from the law and when our body dies our spirit will continue to live and will receive a new body. That's good stuff!!! For lennon - Duh du dudu du
My point being that if the laws are upheld, as you say, we have nothing to fear where our Souls are concerned.
And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. Lev 16:7-10
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Lev 16:21-22
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:6-7
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Cor 6:20
Well technically; Jesus was the sacrificial lamb that the Lord's lot fell. Look to Mark Chapter 14 vs 51 and 52 to read about the scapegoat. I believe you'll find him in those verses. I believe that's why he is mentioned in Mark.
I read and I understand your point on the issue.
In my defense a lot of my study's come from the 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Bible because I try to study that which has not been corrupted by the hand of recent man. I feel that too much has been lost due to translation in the latter years.
My confession:
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.
I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.
I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
In light of recent events - terrorists attacks, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.
The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with, 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it. No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
My Best Regards, Honestly and Respectfully,
Ben Stein
Amen
I took a day unto myself for Soul searching on the matters that have been brought forth and here's what was reveled to me:
If we argue the word of the Load Our God then we blaspheme by default. The Word is written, yet we argue it's point and meaning. The Word as you stated is THE Law, period.
With that in mind I have decided to discontinue writing on the forums.
Not because of anything anyone said, moreover because I have TRESPASSED AGAINST GOD BY ARGUING THE WORD OF HIS LAW. This iniquity I alone must bare unto myself.
I plan to continue reading this forum because there's always something new to learn here.
Good bye:
Rodney.
But since we're here. I had an epiphany the other day after getting pulled into a religious debate at work. Really didn't want to be in that conversation but they guys who baited me into it knew it was the only way to make the conversation truly interesting.
The epiphany came to me as I was driving home from work:
The primary difference between the man who believes and the man who does not believe is that both have questions that do not have answers and one of them is fine with that.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
We see in part because we know in part until that time when all things are made known unto us.
There is only one blaspheme to the believer and that is the one that rejects his/her salvation.
All else is because we know in part. At the final time Christ will wipe away our tears and we will dine with Him. I wish you well my Brother. I hope you will return to grace us with your wisdom and wit one day soon.
1. "Judge not lest ye be judged," too few of those who claim holiness seem to remember this key tennet.
2. The idea that doubt is a bad thing, that questions are not allowed. Did Jesus chastise Thomas for doubting, for asking for proof? Not in the versions I have read which casts the modern statement of "I don't believe, I KNOW" in a bad light for me. No one "knows," they believe and that is perfectly fine with me, that was what was preached if you look at the literal words (even discounting probable mistranaslations). faith, not knowledge, was the key.
3. Another related to point #1, "Before you seek to remove the speck of dust from your brother's eye first remove the plank from your own." Especially relevant in the marriage debates. Divorce and infidelity is rampant in American Christianity (my parents' church is shocking in this area), perhaps that should be addressed as the greater societal problem before passing more amendments related to same-sex marriage, it isn't homosexuality that is the greatest threat to the institution of marriage.
4. "Whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me" Doesn't just mean the good things get counted, the level of hate I hear from church people continues to amaze me. I worked with the homelessness initiatives in my county and of the 15 churches we approached for help only two stepped forward, each of the others answered with some variation of "THOSE people are not suitable for our building." Made me think of the old saying "as welcome as a **** in church." If the whores and homeless are not welcome in church, who should be?
I have always thought that there is a fairly sharp line between "church people" and "Christians," sometimes they are one in the same but not always. One of the big clues is that if you have to tell someone you go to church, I think you can see which camp you fall into. Often when I raise these points someone will mention the idea that the Devil can quote scripture when it suits him, but that is the easy answer used to dodge accepting responsibility.
I respect those who believe when they follow, or at least make a serious effort to follow, those beliefs and do not try to force those on anyone else either through law or volume of shouts, but by modeling their beliefs. However, I find those in short supply in modern religion though I keep looking. The one person who came closest to getting me to consider going back to organized religion was my history of western religions professor. He came into our class and stated his beliefs and said "This is what I believe, I don't KNOW it to be true because I am still alive and have not experienced the afterlife. I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong." He was an Episcopalian priest. It is similar to a Jewish tradition a friend who was a Rabbi told me: "All questions are valid, all answers questionable. Truth is often found in discussion rather than resolution."
Phew, longest stream of thought I've put down in a while.
First, I'm with you regarding organized religion. It isn't bad, per se, but every time someone says "this is the one and only way and everything else is wrong" , I think they're wrong. What we're discussing is beyond the understanding of mortal man, and even those who see, know, the most, still see, know imperfectly. Therefore, no one here can justifiably say "this is the ONLY way".
An example might be the English speaking Christian who pronounces the King James Version of the Bible to be the only uncorrupted truth. Nonsense. Most of the corruptions occurred about 1300 years before King James was born. Some very interesting work has been done on this by the following authors:
Bart Ehrman
Geza Vermes
Tom Harpur
Elaine Pagels
If you're interested, they can explain much better than I can, they spent decades doing the research. One of the reasons I often avoid these conversations is that while I know Jesus Christ to be God's messiah, the living Christ, I do not accept all the propagandistic corruptions concerning his life story. Just because I don't accept the story as written, does not mean that the truth is not within it. To explain farther would require lengthy face to face discussions, and considerable reading.
When I say "I Know", I'm referring to experiences I've had that removed all doubt. Doubt is necessary, there can be no faith before doubt. I've felt the power. I've had my physical, emotional, and spiritual existence change in a moment of time. I've had the questions answered in very real and certain terms that cannot be denied by one who's experienced the answer.
Walt gave an example of something that happened to him in an earlier response, and one could doubt him. One could say "oh, that's coincidence and he reads into it that interpretation". Or, one could ask "why have these things not happened to me?", or "why wasn't MY prayer answered?". I believe Walt, because I know. Why hasn't something happened for someone else? I don't know.
What I do know is that there is spiritual reality. We are part of it. The tree cannot see you, doesn't know you prune it, water it, remove weeds, or neglect it. Do you exist? There are levels, we live on ours.
Science only describes creation, and imperfectly at that, but so far it has only discovered that the creation stories are true, even if they were written for an audience that didn't understand atomic theories and the relativity of light speed to time.
And so, I know what I've seen, felt, lived, watched occur to myself and others, it is real. HE is real. I know.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Please do proceed, gentlemen, and enjoy. I'm off to the NPR side of the FM band...