We still have religious freedom and tax exemption? LMDAO. Tax exemption but the preachers mouth is gagged. There are a number of churches talking about dropping tax exemption because of it and I'm for no tax exemptions for churches in exchange for freedom.
As for all Bush's fault? We're all at fault for voting in all the dead beats we have.
As for present politics. Call it Chicago style.
Who's at fault? We all are.
Who's at fault? Want to guess?
We all are.
So if you want to change things; Get off your fat posteriors, pull up your big girl panties and get active
Otherwise SHUT THE "F" UP!!!!!
We still have religious freedom and tax exemption? LMDAO. Tax exemption but the preachers mouth is gagged. There are a number of churches talking about dropping tax exemption because of it and I'm for no tax exemptions for churches in exchange for freedom.
As for all Bush's fault? We're all at fault for voting in all the dead beats we have.
As for present politics. Call it Chicago style.
Who's at fault? We all are.
Who's at fault? Want to guess?
We all are.
So if you want to change things; Get off your fat posteriors, pull up your big girl panties and get active
Otherwise SHUT THE "F" UP!!!!!
I agree with you 100% on all of this except the "preacher's mouth is gagged" claim. Judging by the what the preachers I flip by on AM and shortwave radio and the stuff I glance at on some religious web sites and flip through on cable TV channels I see no evidence of any suppression of religious expression whatsoever--except possibly for certain Muslim groups.
Agreed there Raisin.....the amount of freedom and the amount of speech religion has in this country is one of our greatest weaknesses and shortcomings when it comes to science and reality.
Comments and promises are easily made, but keeping them can sometimes be a momentous task as such is the situation as we find ourselves in now. What was started by other administrations has to be eventually stopped before our country becomes bankrupt like others that have already fallen. Long term goals seem to be forgotten with our new administration and this my friend is what I find objectionable. We have thousand's starving here at home and yet find it nessary to spend billions over seas to protect our oil supply "pipeline".
Absolutely agree.
As for it being "all Bush's fault", I certainly hope no one thinks that that is a reflection of what I said, if you do, you're simply wrong. He played his part, almost certainly with the best of intentions, but Congress is far more to blame. Unless you subscribe to the very popular view that anything that happens during a presidency is entirely the presidents fault. For example, the economy tanked while Bush was president. Was only partly his fault, for starting unnecessary wars, but there was plently of blame to pass around. Now, this disaster is referred to as "Obamas economy" Wasn't his fault. Not that he's helped a lot.
Bush's fault? No, however, if I give a 4 year old a pistol, and the 4 year old shoots someone, isn't that my fault?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Comments and promises are easily made, but keeping them can sometimes be a momentous task as such is the situation as we find ourselves in now. What was started by other administrations has to be eventually stopped before our country becomes bankrupt like others that have already fallen. Long term goals seem to be forgotten with our new administration and this my friend is what I find objectionable. We have thousand's starving here at home and yet find it nessary to spend billions over seas to protect our oil supply "pipeline".
Absolutely agree.
As for it being "all Bush's fault", I certainly hope no one thinks that that is a reflection of what I said, if you do, you're simply wrong. He played his part, almost certainly with the best of intentions, but Congress is far more to blame. Unless you subscribe to the very popular view that anything that happens during a presidency is entirely the presidents fault. For example, the economy tanked while Bush was president. Was only partly his fault, for starting unnecessary wars, but there was plently of blame to pass around. Now, this disaster is referred to as "Obamas economy" Wasn't his fault. Not that he's helped a lot.
Bush's fault? No, however, if I give a 4 year old a pistol, and the 4 year old shoots someone, isn't that my fault?
Judge in the trial for Manning just dismissed that the charge of aiding the enemy be dropped. So I guess Manning is screwed.
Anyway....
Is this all Bush's fault... I don't think so, he's not that smart. But it was his admin (some say cheney's) and when he came in he took many people with him who have really done a number on this country in terms of bad for every day joes. Sure good for large business but that's about it. A lot of things changed when Bush took over. Which I was and still am surprised he was allowed to do so by the people of this country since we had a coup, BUSH did no win the votes. Even bush said in his first SOTU address about using the surplus that clinton left to pay down the debt, but after that being said the people in the party and those with the money put the breaks on that. Sure congress is to blame for most of things since they control where the money is spent, but the white house pushes policy, most of it anyway. And it all depends on how good the white house is at getting congress to jump in bed with them. From the moment before obama swore in, the gop stonewalled him. Some say because they didn't want the first black man to succeed, some say they just didn't want a democrat in office, some others will say because they he wasn't part of the club. Sure maybe a combination of both but who really knows. Even when Clinton was in office the gop stonewalled him but not nearly like what they are doing now. And they are good, really good at playing defense as an offense. The dems suck at soundbites and messaging.
Obama's big problem is that he is great at speeches and campaigning but when he governs he lacks that power that you see when he was running. Maybe the office is not as powerful anymore as we would think. In reality though, Obama should be out there more pounding on obstruction. He could have a easier time with the agenda he was trying to push. Sad thing is, and this is mainly on the GOP but the dems have really been on the bench as well, there has been no real push for jobs or the economy since the watered down stimulus. I sure the hell can't get how we have all this money for fences and aide to other countries but cannot get money to rebuild america. Stop the nanny state and surveillance state and get this country into the 21st century!!!
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
I just want to puke.
Maybe I should get back off the forum except for pipes. I'm already staying off the cigar sections more because of what I read. I have my favorite cigars and I am always getting samples to try. But God how much dead horse can you whip.
At least at pipes you have pure tobaccos and cured variations to work with and you can literally create blends on your own.
Anyway: don't you all get it? The people let this country get the way it is because of apathy and greed. You and your predecessors laid the foundation; now live in the house the government is building for you.
Until you ALL wake up and realize that it will take every swinging D&*k and probably blood to get it right you are stuck with it. I am non-political because I'm sick of what I see. I still vote so don't accuse me of that; though its a lesser evil over a worse evil nowadays. I will sit back and watch the theater play out. When it's time; if I'm still able I will be there with hellfire. I wish you all well, peace and happiness. LMDAO.
Off topic, a little, but I think this might be a good place to insert this thought.
In a recent issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, the editor, Dave Searle, mentions that research shows that few people are ever influenced by political arguements. I looked, but don't still have the issue, so I'm winging it, here, but by and large people have decided what they think, and only argue "from the gut", usually able to use logic to back up their own opinion, but largely immune to logic if it conflicts with what they want to believe.
I bring this up because I believe this often affects our discussions here. So, just as a way of trying to enhance our communications, I'd like to make a few comments.
I'm one of those in the smaller category. If you present a logical arguement, I think about it, and if your point of view makes more sense than mine, my point of view changes.
There are a great many contributors here that I may disagree with on some point, but that never means I've dismissed every thing you have to say. For instance, I find Raisindot to be extremely intelligent, well read, well intentioned, and I often agree with the majority of what he has to say, even if I may quibble over some point, or think he's too trusting of the state, that doesn't mean I categorize him or use ad hominem fallacies to disregard all of the very good points he makes.
Many of our members make excellent points all the time. Raisindot, Webmost, Beatnic, Pilgrimtex, Clearly Suspect, Jthanatos, ...the list goes on.
I mention this for a few reasons, most should be obvious, but also to say that sometime the bullheadedness of the "argue from the gut" mentality has cost us the input of some other very intelligent contributors. JDH, Sniper, to mention two, and others who hardly take part because of the abusiveness that follows clinging to an emotional arguement.
The only thing that I cannot tolerate is categorization. For instance, if Al Sharpton were to ever have a good idea, something that promotes racial harmony instead of diversity, for example, then I'd agree with Al Sharpton on that point. That doesn't mean that I wholeheartedly agree with everything the man says. Same goes for George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Jim Hightower or Al Franken. Anne Coulter, well, I don't know. I think she has rabies.
Just wanted to say that. I really enjoy the discussions here, and would ask all involved to stop and consider what's really being said before consigning any one person into some broad category, and then beating them up for 'being one of those...' whatevers.
Just my opinion.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Okay. I'm lost. Say what? Maybe I just need that old yellow wood chip paper with three lines, The one with dashes for the center line, with print that fits in the 3 lines. LOL
As long as humans are entitled to have and use they're brains, for who knows when we will be subjected to lobotomies as the powers that be become more engrossed in they're own superiority complexes, there will be conflicting views especially when politics are involved and with that in mind.
My points are rather simple on the matter.
Never did I accuse one president of causing all our national problems but the two most recent have done more to damage our country in the eyes of the world than all the others combined.
Argue if you must but also remember to admit the truth.
We have lost more freedoms in the past few years than most countries have ever had.
Will this trend continue?
Almost certainly because we set back and talk instead of trying to make change.
We as a country could and should be wholly independent with respect to finance and natural recourses but for some reason unknown to me we find it necessary to try and make the world see things our way.
Billions are spent and lives lost and for what?
I maintain that a superiority complex drives a few in "charge" to make bad decisions that affect us all.
Agreed there Raisin.....the amount of freedom and the amount of speech religion has in this country is one of our greatest weaknesses and shortcomings when it comes to science and reality.
Religion is to some as science is to others.
Too each his own, I believe in science because I have seen proof of things millions of years old but no where in the Bible does it say anything about man being put on Earth as soon as it was created. I do find it troublesome that the Cosmos was created out of an explosion that before it contained nothing to explode. This one is for the ages and always will be hotly debated. Personally I would rather Believe that we are meant for a Higher Calling than to simply rot into worm food within the ground when we pass. As I stated, too eack his own on this one.
As long as humans are entitled to have and use they're brains, for who knows when we will be subjected to lobotomies as the powers that be become more engrossed in they're own superiority complexes, there will be conflicting views especially when politics are involved and with that in mind.
My points are rather simple on the matter.
Never did I accuse one president of causing all our national problems but the two most recent have done more to damage our country in the eyes of the world than all the others combined.
Argue if you must but also remember to admit the truth.
We have lost more freedoms in the past few years than most countries have ever had.
Will this trend continue?
Almost certainly because we set back and talk instead of trying to make change.
We as a country could and should be wholly independent with respect to finance and natural recourses but for some reason unknown to me we find it necessary to try and make the world see things our way.
Billions are spent and lives lost and for what?
I maintain that a superiority complex drives a few in "charge" to make bad decisions that affect us all.
+1
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Agreed there Raisin.....the amount of freedom and the amount of speech religion has in this country is one of our greatest weaknesses and shortcomings when it comes to science and reality.
Religion is to some as science is to others.
Too each his own, I believe in science because I have seen proof of things millions of years old but no where in the Bible does it say anything about man being put on Earth as soon as it was created. I do find it troublesome that the Cosmos was created out of an explosion that before it contained nothing to explode. This one is for the ages and always will be hotly debated. Personally I would rather Believe that we are meant for a Higher Calling than to simply rot into worm food within the ground when we pass. As I stated, too eack his own on this one.
+1 more
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Off topic, a little, but I think this might be a good place to insert this thought.
In a recent issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, the editor, Dave Searle, mentions that research shows that few people are ever influenced by political arguements. I looked, but don't still have the issue, so I'm winging it, here, but by and large people have decided what they think, and only argue "from the gut", usually able to use logic to back up their own opinion, but largely immune to logic if it conflicts with what they want to believe.
I bring this up because I believe this often affects our discussions here. So, just as a way of trying to enhance our communications, I'd like to make a few comments.
I'm one of those in the smaller category. If you present a logical arguement, I think about it, and if your point of view makes more sense than mine, my point of view changes.
There are a great many contributors here that I may disagree with on some point, but that never means I've dismissed every thing you have to say. For instance, I find Raisindot to be extremely intelligent, well read, well intentioned, and I often agree with the majority of what he has to say, even if I may quibble over some point, or think he's too trusting of the state, that doesn't mean I categorize him or use ad hominem fallacies to disregard all of the very good points he makes.
Many of our members make excellent points all the time. Raisindot, Webmost, Beatnic, Pilgrimtex, Clearly Suspect, Jthanatos, ...the list goes on.
I mention this for a few reasons, most should be obvious, but also to say that sometime the bullheadedness of the "argue from the gut" mentality has cost us the input of some other very intelligent contributors. JDH, Sniper, to mention two, and others who hardly take part because of the abusiveness that follows clinging to an emotional arguement.
The only thing that I cannot tolerate is categorization. For instance, if Al Sharpton were to ever have a good idea, something that promotes racial harmony instead of diversity, for example, then I'd agree with Al Sharpton on that point. That doesn't mean that I wholeheartedly agree with everything the man says. Same goes for George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Jim Hightower or Al Franken. Anne Coulter, well, I don't know. I think she has rabies.
Just wanted to say that. I really enjoy the discussions here, and would ask all involved to stop and consider what's really being said before consigning any one person into some broad category, and then beating them up for 'being one of those...' whatevers.
Agreed there Raisin.....the amount of freedom and the amount of speech religion has in this country is one of our greatest weaknesses and shortcomings when it comes to science and reality.
Religion is to some as science is to others.
Too each his own, I believe in science because I have seen proof of things millions of years old but no where in the Bible does it say anything about man being put on Earth as soon as it was created. I do find it troublesome that the Cosmos was created out of an explosion that before it contained nothing to explode. This one is for the ages and always will be hotly debated. Personally I would rather Believe that we are meant for a Higher Calling than to simply rot into worm food within the ground when we pass. As I stated, too eack his own on this one.
+1 more
I have no problem with science and religion other than this:
Science measures things based on what the world is like today and do not know the effects on the world in the past therefore their measurements are open to error. It also seems that everywhere lately civilizations are turning up that are thousands of years older than what was considered the oldest.
Ancient man knew more about math and science than thought possible and we may have yet to get up to the level that some civilizations were at.
As for Religion; based on the description here we must be talking about Christian religion. Religion is Man's attempt to put God in a box based on Man's morality. Religion is a lie and should be banned from Christianity.
There: That should get us on another Rabbit Trail.
I remember the words of my 5th grade teacher, when telling us that the school was forcing her to tell us about evolution. She said "I refuse to believe that my ancestors came from apes". LOL. She also said that if it was true that our bodies have evolved from apes, then at some point "God breathed a soul into humans". I don't believe that the earth was created in a week. LOL. But what she said made a bit of sense. Surely there is something that separates humans from other species on this planet. And I'm fairly sure it has to to with the soul.
There are a great many contributors here that I may disagree with on some point, but that never means I've dismissed every thing you have to say. For instance, I find Raisindot to be extremely intelligent, well read, well intentioned, and I often agree with the majority of what he has to say, even if I may quibble over some point, or think he's too trusting of the state, that doesn't mean I categorize him or use ad hominem fallacies to disregard all of the very good points he makes.
Many of our members make excellent points all the time. Raisindot, Webmost, Beatnic, Pilgrimtex, Clearly Suspect, Jthanatos, ...the list goes on.
I feel honored to be included in "valued contributor" category.
I've learned--very much the hard way--to separate emotion and personality--from debates such as these (I learned this after getting tossed off the general discussion section of a different 'hobbyist' site when I did attack certain posters--to my defense, they were posting rabidly anti-semitic and bigoted comments, and the forum moderators were, if not sharing these opinions, at least very tolerant of these points of view).
From that point on I realized 1) either avoid these kinds of conversations or 2) if you must refute them, attack the argument, not the person, and do it in a logical way, using examples if possible. And don't let the fact that you disagree with people--even vehemently--get in the way of other aspects of relationships. For example, Davis (Webmost) and I couldn't be on the more opposite end of the political spectrum, but we've traded cigars, and he's introduced me to some great stuff I never heard of before. And I'd have no problem at all trading cigars with anyone here.
Even though some of the points made around here can be done so in a raw way, I so far have never found a statement uttered here that offended me to the point that I'd want to unleash an emotional and personal attack against the PERSON, rather than their ideas. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I don't even mind being targeted as an Obama-loving liberal (hey, I'll admit it, even though I am totally pissed with him for allowing the wholesale destruction of out 4th Amendment rights to occur, and, frankly, I'm pretty convinced the President McClain would have done the exact same thing).
Agreed there Raisin.....the amount of freedom and the amount of speech religion has in this country is one of our greatest weaknesses and shortcomings when it comes to science and reality.
Religion is to some as science is to others.
Too each his own, I believe in science because I have seen proof of things millions of years old but no where in the Bible does it say anything about man being put on Earth as soon as it was created. I do find it troublesome that the Cosmos was created out of an explosion that before it contained nothing to explode. This one is for the ages and always will be hotly debated. Personally I would rather Believe that we are meant for a Higher Calling than to simply rot into worm food within the ground when we pass. As I stated, too eack his own on this one.
+1 more
I have no problem with science and religion other than this:
Science measures things based on what the world is like today and do not know the effects on the world in the past therefore their measurements are open to error. It also seems that everywhere lately civilizations are turning up that are thousands of years older than what was considered the oldest.
Ancient man knew more about math and science than thought possible and we may have yet to get up to the level that some civilizations were at.
As for Religion; based on the description here we must be talking about Christian religion. Religion is Man's attempt to put God in a box based on Man's morality. Religion is a lie and should be banned from Christianity.
There: That should get us on another Rabbit Trail.
I have heard every argument that man has uttered against the word Religion and with that being said. Again we could argue the schematics of a word all day and still reach no universal opinion. I use the word Religion to describe my Christianity and fully believe in the word for what it represents to ME. As I stated earlier in this post to each his own on this one, This is just my opinion however hotly debated. As a side note, you are probably right about ancient man and they're civilizations. They lived for many years without the ability to destroy the Earth and that in it's self has shown that they were wiser than modern man.
I have no problem with religion when used for the good-----keeping people from hurting one another, giving people a sense of greater purpose, stopping people from fearing death, allowing us to help or "brothers" etc. I do have a problem with god hates gays, the earth isnt billions of years old, some dude walks on water, guy was born of a virgin with 12 discliples-----I mean cmon, these are the same stories every other "religion" has told from Egypt to the far east for thousands of years before this Jesus guy was born. Even Zeus was born from a virgin..........So if you need to it to keep yourself happy, by all means I have no issue with the delusions---I have delusions of my own with gambling and other things. But when you start spouting it off like a tested, peer reviewed, scientific law...I have problems.
Good, we are now on another rabbit trail.
Vulchor's comments are a good example of what I said about Religion and the box That religion tries to make to fit God in.
In 1979 I came to know Jesus Christ in a personal way. Since then I've run the gambit from pastor (yeah I know lol) to evangelist to worship leader to whatever.
However mid 1980s it all got super clear. I had been involved in telling a church about the realities of Satan. Another good subject to bite into. I feel permission was granted to test me. In 1969 on the operating table of a naval hospital I got a staff infection. It was cleared by meds but right after telling the churches kids that satan was real (the very next morning) I woke up with terrible chest pains. I told my wife we needed to get to the hospital. (we lived in Saratoga Springs NY at the time) We opened the garage door and to our amazement there was almost a foot of snow on the ground and it was coming down. It was the end of April. or early May. Nothing forecast that I knew about. I was in terrible pain and we walked to the front of the garage and as we did so an ambulance rolled up the street. Seems it was going to pick up one of the emt's. My wife flagged it down as it came by again and I was on my way to the ER. This was also the only ambulance that still had chains on. All the others had been changed over to normal tires. I was rushed into the er. They wound up giving me all the pain shots they could without killing me and it was like they gave me nothing the pain was so bad.
Finally I either died or passed out. You decide.
Anyway I found myself in a totally dark place. Darker than the darkest black you could imagine. And totally void of any presence of life or shapes (a total emptiness). You can say the absence of God. Then I heard a voice that said this is all there is. There is nothing else. (this has become what I now describe as hell) the total void that was before say the big bang? I felt total despair and then I thought about my relationship with Jesus and I cried out to Him Saying I do not except this. I am a child of the king and help me.
At that point I woke up in the ICCCU of the hospital after 3 days. I spent another 3 weeks in there to treat the infection that according to them hibernated in my bones until that moment and attacked my heart.
Religion is of the enemy created to deceive mankind from the true word of God. This is my personal story. this post has gotten long enough so I won't bother you any further with my story. Just remember when the water was turned into wine it was the best wine man had ever and will ever taste here on earth. It could be no other way.
Rhea was most decidedly not a virgin... Zeus was her 6th child per the myth.
Vulchor:
I have no problem with religion when used for the good-----keeping people from hurting one another, giving people a sense of greater purpose, stopping people from fearing death, allowing us to help or "brothers" etc.
The problem I have with all this is most people who say 'good' actually mean 'agrees with my world view'. When I speak of religion, I speak of Christianity, as it is what I know best. Too often when people take issue with Christianity, the issue boils down to 'I don't like being shown my need for a savior', whether because they don't like being shown their sins or because they don't like to hear they are not able to save themselves by their own power.
Can people of religion do evil things? No doubt. Do people do awful, sinful things claiming they are doing it for Jesus? Of course they do. But that is nothing new. Bar-Jesus was already trying to leverage Christianity for power in Acts. And it persists today. Humans being so caught up in hating the sin that they start hating their neighbor instead of loving him. Have I been guilty of this? Sure have. Probably everyone has at some point.
Let me use one of your examples, homosexuality. Does God hate the gays? No. Is it a sin to be gay? No. Is it a sin to act upon homosexual impulses, either physically or mentally? Yes. Is it some 'special sin', as some preachers want to claim? No. Are gays worse people than me? No. Is salvation equally available to them? Yes. In fact, the whole idea of shunning or otherwise treating homsexual people as different is pure silliness to most Christians. But, much like anything people get involved in, there are those who use what is meant to be good for evil.
Christianity itself is extremely simple. God loves you. Not the 'royal you' everyone, but the specific you. God loves Vulchor, God loves Snowden, God loves Pilgrimtex, loved each of us before the world was created. Loved us so much He sent His son to free us from sin, to take the punishment in our place. Salvation is given freely, it is not ours to take only to reject. Think of it like a cigar bomb. Those cigars are now yours. You don't take them. You don't do anything to earn them. They are just yours. The only choice you have to leave them on the porch and reject them. Even still, they are yours, and, unlike cigars, salvation doesn't go bad.
Wow... I kinda got off on a tangent their. I best be done, sorry for getting so proselytize-y. Ummm... back on topic... Snowden has goofy hair.
Good, we are now on another rabbit trail.
Vulchor's comments are a good example of what I said about Religion and the box That religion tries to make to fit God in.
In 1979 I came to know Jesus Christ in a personal way. Since then I've run the gambit from pastor (yeah I know lol) to evangelist to worship leader to whatever.
However mid 1980s it all got super clear. I had been involved in telling a church about the realities of Satan. Another good subject to bite into. I feel permission was granted to test me. In 1969 on the operating table of a naval hospital I got a staff infection. It was cleared by meds but right after telling the churches kids that satan was real (the very next morning) I woke up with terrible chest pains. I told my wife we needed to get to the hospital. (we lived in Saratoga Springs NY at the time) We opened the garage door and to our amazement there was almost a foot of snow on the ground and it was coming down. It was the end of April. or early May. Nothing forecast that I knew about. I was in terrible pain and we walked to the front of the garage and as we did so an ambulance rolled up the street. Seems it was going to pick up one of the emt's. My wife flagged it down as it came by again and I was on my way to the ER. This was also the only ambulance that still had chains on. All the others had been changed over to normal tires. I was rushed into the er. They wound up giving me all the pain shots they could without killing me and it was like they gave me nothing the pain was so bad.
Finally I either died or passed out. You decide.
Anyway I found myself in a totally dark place. Darker than the darkest black you could imagine. And totally void of any presence of life or shapes (a total emptiness). You can say the absence of God. Then I heard a voice that said this is all there is. There is nothing else. (this has become what I now describe as hell) the total void that was before say the big bang? I felt total despair and then I thought about my relationship with Jesus and I cried out to Him Saying I do not except this. I am a child of the king and help me.
At that point I woke up in the ICCCU of the hospital after 3 days. I spent another 3 weeks in there to treat the infection that according to them hibernated in my bones until that moment and attacked my heart.
Religion is of the enemy created to deceive mankind from the true word of God. This is my personal story. this post has gotten long enough so I won't bother you any further with my story. Just remember when the water was turned into wine it was the best wine man had ever and will ever taste here on earth. It could be no other way.
wow man, great story. Thanks for sharing.
I've watched several documentaries and have researched this for a while now. While science has yet to prove one way or another I am torn between two sides. One side I lean towards is that there is some thing spiritual in this universe. I mean there obviously is since so many stories surrounding ghosts and hauntings exist. Now would what we be calling a ghost just be another type of being coming into our dimension? Might it be that we ourselves are from another dimension and for some reason or means took physical form for a brief time and sometimes we don't let go? I dunno.
The other part I lean too is this. We are here and we are physical and that is it. Our brains are capable of so much more than what we use them for, possibly part of some type of unlocking of our dna that we don't yet understand. When we are close to dying our brains take over and we "dream" if that would be used loosely. The darkness or light or even voices are made up by our mind for what ever reason. Anyway whether there is a god or just another form of life that we belong too or are a part of we might never know until we do pass over. Either way I'm way off topic.
I do feel that religions are a tool of deception and sadly is rather effective. Look all through history at the horror that people have done in the name of their religion or beliefs. Sadly people are too timid to actually call BS on it and we have the greatest, deadliest killing device every made on our hands. It doesn't matter if it's from the Muslim faith, Catholic, Christian, or even how many Gods are wanting human sacrifice for rain ... people manipulate the true meaning of faith and religion are.
Boy we sure are a long way from home,, damn bunny trails!!!!!! There is no debating that Jesus Christ did exist. Given the fact that he was real and realizing that there have been more books written about Jesus Christ than any other person in history and given the fact that Jesus Christ is the most dominant figure in all of history, I dont understand how he can be compared to mythology or santa clause or all the other comments that have been made about him here and not just in this thread but several over the years. I am truly sorry for those who dont believe or rather believe that this is all there is. I also dont understand how one can look at this earth with its perfect conditions and how everything is tailored precisely for mankinds existence, from the air we breathe, the food we eat, to the night for sleep, and think this all just happened. Here are a few of my fav passages from the Gospel
So Kid, you must think that the earth was created in 7 days? And that a Santa Claus guy made Adam out of clay? And that he pulled a rib out of Adam and made a woman? You must be deranged. You have a mental problem and should be incarcerated. See how I did that? LOL
It may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody."
Bob Dylan.
Boy we sure are a long way from home,, damn bunny trails!!!!!! There is no debating that Jesus Christ did exist. Given the fact that he was real and realizing that there have been more books written about Jesus Christ than any other person in history and given the fact that Jesus Christ is the most dominant figure in all of history, I dont understand how he can be compared to mythology or santa clause or all the other comments that have been made about him here and not just in this thread but several over the years. I am truly sorry for those who dont believe or rather believe that this is all there is. I also dont understand how one can look at this earth with its perfect conditions and how everything is tailored precisely for mankinds existence, from the air we breathe, the food we eat, to the night for sleep, and think this all just happened. Here are a few of my fav passages from the Gospel
Romans 5:1-5 2 Corinthians 4:18 2 Corinthians 5:7
And Thank You Pilgrimtex for sharing your story!!
I wrote a piece that I called "Who am I". This is an excerpt from it:
1 Corinthians 2:6-16
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NKJV
You see; according to the above:
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
Are you saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you can no longer sin? Or that you are no longer under the law? Or both? -
Hoo boy. Being a non-Christian, I really, really, really, really, really want to get into this discussion.
But I won't. I respect everyone's right to believe (or not believe) in whatever the heck they want (y'know, as long as it doesn't involve breaking laws) as long as they respect my right to believe (or not believe) in what I want and don't impose their religious beliefs on me.
Hoo boy. Being a non-Christian, I really, really, really, really, really want to get into this discussion.
But I won't. I respect everyone's right to believe (or not believe) in whatever the heck they want (y'know, as long as it doesn't involve breaking laws) as long as they respect my right to believe (or not believe) in what I want and don't impose their religious beliefs on me.
Hop in. Don't be shy. What are those laws you speak of? The ones made by man? What if you lived in a land ruled by Sharia? If laws aren't based on a Godly morality, they are worthless. And in the same line of reasoning that you give, does someone have the right to impose their atheist laws on me?
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
Are you saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you can no longer sin? Or that you are no longer under the law? Or both? -
This can get really really deep for a thread but here goes: According to the Christian Bible, Sin entered the world through Adam. Though man was fallen and Heaven's door was closed there was no accountabilities for man since there was no law to accused him. Though God was not happy with mankind and made it known to them through the flood etc. Still there was nothing to accuse man of breaking any commandments or laws.
The law came into being by God through Moses and it wasn't just 10 commandments. It was an entire series of how man should live. (look it up). These laws are so far outreaching that it was impossible for fallen man to abide by every one and not be guilty of breaking one. They all carried the same punishment as well, no matter how trivial. This was done so the law would make mankind look to a messiah a redeemer who would free them from the law. They were guided by the prophets in their search.
A sacrifice once and for all had to be made to overcome the law. Annual sacrifices written into the law only covered you for 1 year. We needed someone blameless without sin who could satisfy the law. Since no one is that there was no way to except God who is incapable of sin.
That is why the Holy Spirit had to come down to earth and impregnate Mary with the seed of God. She did not have to be sinless because it is the Father (genetically speaking) that passes on the blood etc to the child. That is why Jesus is both man and God. He is also sinless because the sin is passed down by the father of the child since it was Adam's sin.
We now had a sacrifice that could satisfy the law of sin and death and free mankind of this law for those who choose to have Jesus be their savior and Lord. In other words like changing citizenship. When you do The spirit of God joins with our spirit and we are now children and heirs of the living God.
The law which still exists no longer pertains to those who are heirs to Heaven.
Therefore there is no law and no more sin. However; Though you have free reign it is your spirit in fellowship with God's Holy Spirit that guides you. and the love that you feel to God for what He has done. (When the light bulb flicks on) and you realize the Love God holds you with and the sacrifice made for you, you loose that mentality of "what can I get away with" You become totally free without the worry of sin and even though the flesh is still dead the spirit is a new man and sinless. Capice?
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
Are you saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you can no longer sin? Or that you are no longer under the law? Or both? -
This can get really really deep for a thread but here goes: According to the Christian Bible, Sin entered the world through Adam. Though man was fallen and Heaven's door was closed there was no accountabilities for man since there was no law to accused him. Though God was not happy with mankind and made it known to them through the flood etc. Still there was nothing to accuse man of breaking any commandments or laws.
The law came into being by God through Moses and it wasn't just 10 commandments. It was an entire series of how man should live. (look it up). These laws are so far outreaching that it was impossible for fallen man to abide by every one and not be guilty of breaking one. They all carried the same punishment as well, no matter how trivial. This was done so the law would make mankind look to a messiah a redeemer who would free them from the law. They were guided by the prophets in their search.
A sacrifice once and for all had to be made to overcome the law. Annual sacrifices written into the law only covered you for 1 year. We needed someone blameless without sin who could satisfy the law. Since no one is that there was no way to except God who is incapable of sin.
That is why the Holy Spirit had to come down to earth and impregnate Mary with the seed of God. She did not have to be sinless because it is the Father (genetically speaking) that passes on the blood etc to the child. That is why Jesus is both man and God. He is also sinless because the sin is passed down by the father of the child since it was Adam's sin.
We now had a sacrifice that could satisfy the law of sin and death and free mankind of this law for those who choose to have Jesus be their savior and Lord. In other words like changing citizenship. When you do The spirit of God joins with our spirit and we are now children and heirs of the living God.
The law which still exists no longer pertains to those who are heirs to Heaven.
Therefore there is no law and no more sin. However; Though you have free reign it is your spirit in fellowship with God's Holy Spirit that guides you. and the love that you feel to God for what He has done. (When the light bulb flicks on) and you realize the Love God holds you with and the sacrifice made for you, you loose that mentality of "what can I get away with" You become totally free without the worry of sin and even though the flesh is still dead the spirit is a new man and sinless. Capice?
So, do you just disregard all the law statements Jesus made? The law is more than just the 10 commandments and levitical law. Be fruitful and multiply is law. Do not eat from that tree is law. Love your neighbor is law. Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit teaching them all that Jesus commanded is law. And if you are no longer worried about sin, does that mean if you do sin you stop being Christian? Or are those that struggle with sin not Christian? Was Paul not a Christian?
Comments
Amen!
As for it being "all Bush's fault", I certainly hope no one thinks that that is a reflection of what I said, if you do, you're simply wrong. He played his part, almost certainly with the best of intentions, but Congress is far more to blame. Unless you subscribe to the very popular view that anything that happens during a presidency is entirely the presidents fault. For example, the economy tanked while Bush was president. Was only partly his fault, for starting unnecessary wars, but there was plently of blame to pass around. Now, this disaster is referred to as "Obamas economy" Wasn't his fault. Not that he's helped a lot.
Bush's fault? No, however, if I give a 4 year old a pistol, and the 4 year old shoots someone, isn't that my fault?
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Anyway....
Is this all Bush's fault... I don't think so, he's not that smart. But it was his admin (some say cheney's) and when he came in he took many people with him who have really done a number on this country in terms of bad for every day joes. Sure good for large business but that's about it. A lot of things changed when Bush took over. Which I was and still am surprised he was allowed to do so by the people of this country since we had a coup, BUSH did no win the votes. Even bush said in his first SOTU address about using the surplus that clinton left to pay down the debt, but after that being said the people in the party and those with the money put the breaks on that. Sure congress is to blame for most of things since they control where the money is spent, but the white house pushes policy, most of it anyway. And it all depends on how good the white house is at getting congress to jump in bed with them. From the moment before obama swore in, the gop stonewalled him. Some say because they didn't want the first black man to succeed, some say they just didn't want a democrat in office, some others will say because they he wasn't part of the club. Sure maybe a combination of both but who really knows. Even when Clinton was in office the gop stonewalled him but not nearly like what they are doing now. And they are good, really good at playing defense as an offense. The dems suck at soundbites and messaging.
Obama's big problem is that he is great at speeches and campaigning but when he governs he lacks that power that you see when he was running. Maybe the office is not as powerful anymore as we would think. In reality though, Obama should be out there more pounding on obstruction. He could have a easier time with the agenda he was trying to push. Sad thing is, and this is mainly on the GOP but the dems have really been on the bench as well, there has been no real push for jobs or the economy since the watered down stimulus. I sure the hell can't get how we have all this money for fences and aide to other countries but cannot get money to rebuild america. Stop the nanny state and surveillance state and get this country into the 21st century!!!
Maybe I should get back off the forum except for pipes. I'm already staying off the cigar sections more because of what I read. I have my favorite cigars and I am always getting samples to try. But God how much dead horse can you whip.
At least at pipes you have pure tobaccos and cured variations to work with and you can literally create blends on your own.
Anyway: don't you all get it? The people let this country get the way it is because of apathy and greed. You and your predecessors laid the foundation; now live in the house the government is building for you.
Until you ALL wake up and realize that it will take every swinging D&*k and probably blood to get it right you are stuck with it. I am non-political because I'm sick of what I see. I still vote so don't accuse me of that; though its a lesser evil over a worse evil nowadays. I will sit back and watch the theater play out. When it's time; if I'm still able I will be there with hellfire. I wish you all well, peace and happiness. LMDAO.
In a recent issue of Motorcycle Consumer News, the editor, Dave Searle, mentions that research shows that few people are ever influenced by political arguements. I looked, but don't still have the issue, so I'm winging it, here, but by and large people have decided what they think, and only argue "from the gut", usually able to use logic to back up their own opinion, but largely immune to logic if it conflicts with what they want to believe.
I bring this up because I believe this often affects our discussions here. So, just as a way of trying to enhance our communications, I'd like to make a few comments.
I'm one of those in the smaller category. If you present a logical arguement, I think about it, and if your point of view makes more sense than mine, my point of view changes.
There are a great many contributors here that I may disagree with on some point, but that never means I've dismissed every thing you have to say. For instance, I find Raisindot to be extremely intelligent, well read, well intentioned, and I often agree with the majority of what he has to say, even if I may quibble over some point, or think he's too trusting of the state, that doesn't mean I categorize him or use ad hominem fallacies to disregard all of the very good points he makes.
Many of our members make excellent points all the time. Raisindot, Webmost, Beatnic, Pilgrimtex, Clearly Suspect, Jthanatos, ...the list goes on.
I mention this for a few reasons, most should be obvious, but also to say that sometime the bullheadedness of the "argue from the gut" mentality has cost us the input of some other very intelligent contributors. JDH, Sniper, to mention two, and others who hardly take part because of the abusiveness that follows clinging to an emotional arguement.
The only thing that I cannot tolerate is categorization. For instance, if Al Sharpton were to ever have a good idea, something that promotes racial harmony instead of diversity, for example, then I'd agree with Al Sharpton on that point. That doesn't mean that I wholeheartedly agree with everything the man says. Same goes for George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Jim Hightower or Al Franken. Anne Coulter, well, I don't know. I think she has rabies.
Just wanted to say that. I really enjoy the discussions here, and would ask all involved to stop and consider what's really being said before consigning any one person into some broad category, and then beating them up for 'being one of those...' whatevers.
Just my opinion.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
My points are rather simple on the matter.
Never did I accuse one president of causing all our national problems but the two most recent have done more to damage our country in the eyes of the world than all the others combined.
Argue if you must but also remember to admit the truth.
We have lost more freedoms in the past few years than most countries have ever had.
Will this trend continue?
Almost certainly because we set back and talk instead of trying to make change.
We as a country could and should be wholly independent with respect to finance and natural recourses but for some reason unknown to me we find it necessary to try and make the world see things our way.
Billions are spent and lives lost and for what?
I maintain that a superiority complex drives a few in "charge" to make bad decisions that affect us all.
Too each his own, I believe in science because I have seen proof of things millions of years old but no where in the Bible does it say anything about man being put on Earth as soon as it was created.
I do find it troublesome that the Cosmos was created out of an explosion that before it contained nothing to explode.
This one is for the ages and always will be hotly debated.
Personally I would rather Believe that we are meant for a Higher Calling than to simply rot into worm food within the ground when we pass.
As I stated, too eack his own on this one.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I have no problem with science and religion other than this: Science measures things based on what the world is like today and do not know the effects on the world in the past therefore their measurements are open to error. It also seems that everywhere lately civilizations are turning up that are thousands of years older than what was considered the oldest.
Ancient man knew more about math and science than thought possible and we may have yet to get up to the level that some civilizations were at.
As for Religion; based on the description here we must be talking about Christian religion. Religion is Man's attempt to put God in a box based on Man's morality. Religion is a lie and should be banned from Christianity.
There: That should get us on another Rabbit Trail.
I don't believe that the earth was created in a week. LOL. But what she said made a bit of sense. Surely there is something that separates humans from other species on this planet. And I'm fairly sure it has to to with the soul.
I've learned--very much the hard way--to separate emotion and personality--from debates such as these (I learned this after getting tossed off the general discussion section of a different 'hobbyist' site when I did attack certain posters--to my defense, they were posting rabidly anti-semitic and bigoted comments, and the forum moderators were, if not sharing these opinions, at least very tolerant of these points of view).
From that point on I realized 1) either avoid these kinds of conversations or 2) if you must refute them, attack the argument, not the person, and do it in a logical way, using examples if possible. And don't let the fact that you disagree with people--even vehemently--get in the way of other aspects of relationships. For example, Davis (Webmost) and I couldn't be on the more opposite end of the political spectrum, but we've traded cigars, and he's introduced me to some great stuff I never heard of before. And I'd have no problem at all trading cigars with anyone here.
Even though some of the points made around here can be done so in a raw way, I so far have never found a statement uttered here that offended me to the point that I'd want to unleash an emotional and personal attack against the PERSON, rather than their ideas. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and I don't even mind being targeted as an Obama-loving liberal (hey, I'll admit it, even though I am totally pissed with him for allowing the wholesale destruction of out 4th Amendment rights to occur, and, frankly, I'm pretty convinced the President McClain would have done the exact same thing).
I have heard every argument that man has uttered against the word Religion and with that being said.
Again we could argue the schematics of a word all day and still reach no universal opinion.
I use the word Religion to describe my Christianity and fully believe in the word for what it represents to ME.
As I stated earlier in this post to each his own on this one, This is just my opinion however hotly debated.
As a side note, you are probably right about ancient man and they're civilizations. They lived for many years without the ability to destroy the Earth and that in it's self has shown that they were wiser than modern man.
Vulchor's comments are a good example of what I said about Religion and the box That religion tries to make to fit God in.
In 1979 I came to know Jesus Christ in a personal way. Since then I've run the gambit from pastor (yeah I know lol) to evangelist to worship leader to whatever.
However mid 1980s it all got super clear. I had been involved in telling a church about the realities of Satan. Another good subject to bite into. I feel permission was granted to test me. In 1969 on the operating table of a naval hospital I got a staff infection. It was cleared by meds but right after telling the churches kids that satan was real (the very next morning) I woke up with terrible chest pains. I told my wife we needed to get to the hospital. (we lived in Saratoga Springs NY at the time) We opened the garage door and to our amazement there was almost a foot of snow on the ground and it was coming down. It was the end of April. or early May. Nothing forecast that I knew about. I was in terrible pain and we walked to the front of the garage and as we did so an ambulance rolled up the street. Seems it was going to pick up one of the emt's. My wife flagged it down as it came by again and I was on my way to the ER. This was also the only ambulance that still had chains on. All the others had been changed over to normal tires. I was rushed into the er. They wound up giving me all the pain shots they could without killing me and it was like they gave me nothing the pain was so bad.
Finally I either died or passed out. You decide.
Anyway I found myself in a totally dark place. Darker than the darkest black you could imagine. And totally void of any presence of life or shapes (a total emptiness). You can say the absence of God. Then I heard a voice that said this is all there is. There is nothing else. (this has become what I now describe as hell) the total void that was before say the big bang? I felt total despair and then I thought about my relationship with Jesus and I cried out to Him Saying I do not except this. I am a child of the king and help me.
At that point I woke up in the ICCCU of the hospital after 3 days. I spent another 3 weeks in there to treat the infection that according to them hibernated in my bones until that moment and attacked my heart.
Religion is of the enemy created to deceive mankind from the true word of God. This is my personal story. this post has gotten long enough so I won't bother you any further with my story. Just remember when the water was turned into wine it was the best wine man had ever and will ever taste here on earth. It could be no other way.
The problem I have with all this is most people who say 'good' actually mean 'agrees with my world view'. When I speak of religion, I speak of Christianity, as it is what I know best. Too often when people take issue with Christianity, the issue boils down to 'I don't like being shown my need for a savior', whether because they don't like being shown their sins or because they don't like to hear they are not able to save themselves by their own power.
Can people of religion do evil things? No doubt. Do people do awful, sinful things claiming they are doing it for Jesus? Of course they do. But that is nothing new. Bar-Jesus was already trying to leverage Christianity for power in Acts. And it persists today. Humans being so caught up in hating the sin that they start hating their neighbor instead of loving him. Have I been guilty of this? Sure have. Probably everyone has at some point.
Let me use one of your examples, homosexuality. Does God hate the gays? No. Is it a sin to be gay? No. Is it a sin to act upon homosexual impulses, either physically or mentally? Yes. Is it some 'special sin', as some preachers want to claim? No. Are gays worse people than me? No. Is salvation equally available to them? Yes. In fact, the whole idea of shunning or otherwise treating homsexual people as different is pure silliness to most Christians. But, much like anything people get involved in, there are those who use what is meant to be good for evil.
Christianity itself is extremely simple. God loves you. Not the 'royal you' everyone, but the specific you. God loves Vulchor, God loves Snowden, God loves Pilgrimtex, loved each of us before the world was created. Loved us so much He sent His son to free us from sin, to take the punishment in our place. Salvation is given freely, it is not ours to take only to reject. Think of it like a cigar bomb. Those cigars are now yours. You don't take them. You don't do anything to earn them. They are just yours. The only choice you have to leave them on the porch and reject them. Even still, they are yours, and, unlike cigars, salvation doesn't go bad.
Wow... I kinda got off on a tangent their. I best be done, sorry for getting so proselytize-y. Ummm... back on topic... Snowden has goofy hair.
I've watched several documentaries and have researched this for a while now. While science has yet to prove one way or another I am torn between two sides. One side I lean towards is that there is some thing spiritual in this universe. I mean there obviously is since so many stories surrounding ghosts and hauntings exist. Now would what we be calling a ghost just be another type of being coming into our dimension? Might it be that we ourselves are from another dimension and for some reason or means took physical form for a brief time and sometimes we don't let go? I dunno.
The other part I lean too is this. We are here and we are physical and that is it. Our brains are capable of so much more than what we use them for, possibly part of some type of unlocking of our dna that we don't yet understand. When we are close to dying our brains take over and we "dream" if that would be used loosely. The darkness or light or even voices are made up by our mind for what ever reason. Anyway whether there is a god or just another form of life that we belong too or are a part of we might never know until we do pass over. Either way I'm way off topic.
I do feel that religions are a tool of deception and sadly is rather effective. Look all through history at the horror that people have done in the name of their religion or beliefs. Sadly people are too timid to actually call BS on it and we have the greatest, deadliest killing device every made on our hands. It doesn't matter if it's from the Muslim faith, Catholic, Christian, or even how many Gods are wanting human sacrifice for rain ... people manipulate the true meaning of faith and religion are.
There is no debating that Jesus Christ did exist. Given the fact that he was real and realizing that there have been more books written about Jesus Christ than any other person in history and given the fact that Jesus Christ is the most dominant figure in all of history, I dont understand how he can be compared to mythology or santa clause or all the other comments that have been made about him here and not just in this thread but several over the years. I am truly sorry for those who dont believe or rather believe that this is all there is.
I also dont understand how one can look at this earth with its perfect conditions and how everything is tailored precisely for mankinds existence, from the air we breathe, the food we eat, to the night for sleep, and think this all just happened.
Here are a few of my fav passages from the Gospel
Romans 5:1-5
2 Corinthians 4:18
2 Corinthians 5:7
And Thank You Pilgrimtex for sharing your story!!
It may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody."
Bob Dylan.
I wrote a piece that I called "Who am I". This is an excerpt from it:
1 Corinthians 2:6-16
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NKJV
You see; according to the above:
I no longer have or are controlled by the spirit of this world the evil one who was cast out of Heaven. I have received the Spirit whom is from God, whom is God. Christ is in me and sin can no longer have a grip on me because the Spirit of life is in me and I can judge those that are not in Christ but I am not judged because the law of sin and death no longer pertains to me. Without the law there can be no transgression because there is no accusation.
It may be hard for some grown up in religion to understand this. (I was raised Catholic and later non-denominational). In other words: There is no longer any law to accuse me of wrong doing; However since my spirit is synced to the Spirit of God I have a witness that allows me the wisdom to choose rightly. Capice?
But I won't. I respect everyone's right to believe (or not believe) in whatever the heck they want (y'know, as long as it doesn't involve breaking laws) as long as they respect my right to believe (or not believe) in what I want and don't impose their religious beliefs on me.
And in the same line of reasoning that you give, does someone have the right to impose their atheist laws on me?
This can get really really deep for a thread but here goes: According to the Christian Bible, Sin entered the world through Adam. Though man was fallen and Heaven's door was closed there was no accountabilities for man since there was no law to accused him. Though God was not happy with mankind and made it known to them through the flood etc. Still there was nothing to accuse man of breaking any commandments or laws.
The law came into being by God through Moses and it wasn't just 10 commandments. It was an entire series of how man should live. (look it up). These laws are so far outreaching that it was impossible for fallen man to abide by every one and not be guilty of breaking one. They all carried the same punishment as well, no matter how trivial. This was done so the law would make mankind look to a messiah a redeemer who would free them from the law. They were guided by the prophets in their search.
A sacrifice once and for all had to be made to overcome the law. Annual sacrifices written into the law only covered you for 1 year. We needed someone blameless without sin who could satisfy the law. Since no one is that there was no way to except God who is incapable of sin.
That is why the Holy Spirit had to come down to earth and impregnate Mary with the seed of God. She did not have to be sinless because it is the Father (genetically speaking) that passes on the blood etc to the child. That is why Jesus is both man and God. He is also sinless because the sin is passed down by the father of the child since it was Adam's sin.
We now had a sacrifice that could satisfy the law of sin and death and free mankind of this law for those who choose to have Jesus be their savior and Lord. In other words like changing citizenship. When you do The spirit of God joins with our spirit and we are now children and heirs of the living God.
The law which still exists no longer pertains to those who are heirs to Heaven.
Therefore there is no law and no more sin. However; Though you have free reign it is your spirit in fellowship with God's Holy Spirit that guides you. and the love that you feel to God for what He has done. (When the light bulb flicks on) and you realize the Love God holds you with and the sacrifice made for you, you loose that mentality of "what can I get away with" You become totally free without the worry of sin and even though the flesh is still dead the spirit is a new man and sinless. Capice?