seriously, that is the longest thread ever. How the heck do you expect us to read that? Just say "you are full of BS nana nana boo boo stick your head in doo doo" Then we will all know you disagree.
Wow Phebes, chill out dude. Before you go telling me what I know and don't know, read that again. Only ONE of the many things you named happened before Feb 1st. That was the day nominations were due for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, which overruled the Supreme Court's decision in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. and so eased the requirements for filing employment discrimination lawsuits.
This isn't about his policy or who agrees with him or not, it's about what he had done to be nominated for the prize. Nominations were due by Feb 1st 2009. One piece of law signed into effect is not enough to merrit the Nobel Peace Prize... You just proved 100% this was a total politacl move when they gave him the award.
And why is when anyone says anything about Obama, you don't defend him as much as you bash Bush... Bush wasn't a great president. I'm not a huge fan. I agree with some of what he did, but disagree with a LOT of his policies. This isn't about Bush, he isn't running for office and never will again.
Also your defenition of Fascism was nothing more than someone's long winded interpretation of what they think Fascism is. I will link my sources. Fascism summed up on dictionary.com is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
From Merriam-Webster :
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
It has nothing to do with corporations running the government and that was a serious stretch. Look at the amount of government control the Obama Administration is pushing for and how he wants to silence his critics. The left is a lot closer to being fascists than we have ever seen in this country. The Bush administration wasn't much better in this area, but they didn't fight for the amount of government control our current administration is seeking.
Squirrel, those of us here (there are a few) thank you for your long post....Its nice to see someone try to buck the fest of like minded people on some threads continually posting only to reinforce those who share their opinions.----and no, this is not a target toward any person at all. It will ultimately be discredited and ignored, but the dissent of popular opinion on the boards is nice to see.
Wow Phebes, chill out dude. Before you go telling me what I know and don't know, read that again. Only ONE of the many things you named happened before Feb 1st. That was the day nominations were due for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, which overruled the Supreme Court's decision in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. and so eased the requirements for filing employment discrimination lawsuits.
This isn't about his policy or who agrees with him or not, it's about what he had done to be nominated for the prize. Nominations were due by Feb 1st 2009. One piece of law signed into effect is not enough to merrit the Nobel Peace Prize... You just proved 100% this was a total politacl move when they gave him the award.
And why is when anyone says anything about Obama, you don't defend him as much as you bash Bush... Bush wasn't a great president. I'm not a huge fan. I agree with some of what he did, but disagree with a LOT of his policies. This isn't about Bush, he isn't running for office and never will again.
Also your defenition of Fascism was nothing more than someone's long winded interpretation of what they think Fascism is. I will link my sources. Fascism summed up on dictionary.com is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
From Merriam-Webster :
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
It has nothing to do with corporations running the government and that was a serious stretch. Look at the amount of government control the Obama Administration is pushing for and how he wants to silence his critics. The left is a lot closer to being fascists than we have ever seen in this country. The Bush administration wasn't much better in this area, but they didn't fight for the amount of government control our current administration is seeking.
Actually Obama was nominated back then along with hundreds of others. It wasn't finalized until a few days ago. And the peace prize was most often given to people for their ideals and agendas to promote peace, not what they had accomplished. And I know the definition of fascism was taken off of wikipidia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definitions). Actually it is a merge of government and corporate interests. Sorry to tell you but leaving our fates to corporations is, well look at what has happened. I bet that you would love to give up everything run by the government and hand it over to private business. I'd love to see you do it, but you wouldn't. Go a head, we know that banks, wallstreet, healthcare, the private corporate militaries, prisons .... are run so well and really work for the best interest of the American People. GET REAL. Obama is really pushing towards fascism, yeah and we never won WWII. So trying to take control from private companies that continue to profit from people getting sick and dying and make it so that doesn't happen is fascist? Yeah, sure.. sorry puro but you are dead wrong. I love the VA healthcare, I've never been turned away and get top notch care. I also don't spend thousands of dollars for it. My wife had her ER visit declined and now am stuck with 4,000. Read about the millions of people being screwed by the health companies, not to mention the millions that are being run out of their homes and jobs due to the HIGh costs. This is just one example. The huge cuts in employment and destruction of manufacturing was due to less restrictions on private sector employers so they cut corners and laws to protect workers. READ all about it. I recommend you do some serious digging. Obviously debating with you is a loose end, along with many people who continue to ignore the FACTS. I just get tire of listening to you and many others HATE talk about Obama and the lies being posted. Sorry to bring some reality to the issue but I didn't spell out the entire laundry list of what bush and obama have done or didn't do. I didn't list every single thing that this country has F'd up on since the late 70's, but if you really want to know do some real research. I am finishing up my major for economics and political science and have done countless hours studying and the whole system is a mess. I know that no reform of anything is what your party wants, and the continued destruction of this country for average Americans. Look at all the policies they have enacted and have chipped away at policies that are/have been in place. I'm an independent and am not in awe over Obama or the democrats but I like the idea of change for the better. less government isn't always good, more government isn't always good, but total loss of government is bad and private control is horrible. I guess striping away the laws for American citizens is good. The patriot act, and opening the door to corporate welfare is the best I guess, among other things. You know the story of Superman right? How his father tried to warn the "political powers" about the SUN destroying their planet, well that was saw as a scary thing, so they went with the other scientists who said, no krypton is just shifting orbit or what-have-you.. we'll be okay. Well guess what, they were wrong. Why? Well because it's hard, very hard to look catastrophe in the face and really deal with a problem on a global scale, but it's much easier to just push it under the rug. So do what many Americans have done over the last few decades, close your eyes, and then wake up and realize that the bus left. I think American's in the majority have realized this, and hopefully they haven't been asleep too long. The future will tell what will happen. And while the rest of the world looks at OUR policies and laugh at how America has been turned over to private control where the democratic republic once stood maybe then all Americans will know the truth, maybe not.
Squirrel, those of us here (there are a few) thank you for your long post....Its nice to see someone try to buck the fest of like minded people on some threads continually posting only to reinforce those who share their opinions.----and no, this is not a target toward any person at all. It will ultimately be discredited and ignored, but the dissent of popular opinion on the boards is nice to see.
Well thank you, I know laker and the urbster have tried to post things in the more truthful medium, and also to have a nice debate but really there isn't a whole lot of debate. Look at the history of the last 30 years, not so good. I also want to point out the great title of this thread, I mean wtf? A little history lesson on what the peace prize is and how it is determined might be in order but why? Ignorance is bliss, at least so I hear. Once again I like this forum, but seeing things like this and also the continued rhetoric is getting old. I think a political discussion is good sometimes but it's been turning into a fringe lately.
Wow Phebes, chill out dude. Before you go telling me what I know and don't know, read that again. Only ONE of the many things you named happened before Feb 1st. That was the day nominations were due for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, which overruled the Supreme Court's decision in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. and so eased the requirements for filing employment discrimination lawsuits.
This isn't about his policy or who agrees with him or not, it's about what he had done to be nominated for the prize. Nominations were due by Feb 1st 2009. One piece of law signed into effect is not enough to merrit the Nobel Peace Prize... You just proved 100% this was a total politacl move when they gave him the award.
And why is when anyone says anything about Obama, you don't defend him as much as you bash Bush... Bush wasn't a great president. I'm not a huge fan. I agree with some of what he did, but disagree with a LOT of his policies. This isn't about Bush, he isn't running for office and never will again.
Also your defenition of Fascism was nothing more than someone's long winded interpretation of what they think Fascism is. I will link my sources. Fascism summed up on dictionary.com is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
From Merriam-Webster :
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
It has nothing to do with corporations running the government and that was a serious stretch. Look at the amount of government control the Obama Administration is pushing for and how he wants to silence his critics. The left is a lot closer to being fascists than we have ever seen in this country. The Bush administration wasn't much better in this area, but they didn't fight for the amount of government control our current administration is seeking.
Actually Obama was nominated back then along with hundreds of others. It wasn't finalized until a few days ago. And the peace prize was most often given to people for their ideals and agendas to promote peace, not what they had accomplished. And I know the definition of fascism was taken off of wikipidia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definitions). Actually it is a merge of government and corporate interests. Sorry to tell you but leaving our fates to corporations is, well look at what has happened. I bet that you would love to give up everything run by the government and hand it over to private business. I'd love to see you do it, but you wouldn't. Go a head, we know that banks, wallstreet, healthcare, the private corporate militaries, prisons .... are run so well and really work for the best interest of the American People. GET REAL. Obama is really pushing towards fascism, yeah and we never won WWII. So trying to take control from private companies that continue to profit from people getting sick and dying and make it so that doesn't happen is fascist? Yeah, sure.. sorry puro but you are dead wrong. I love the VA healthcare, I've never been turned away and get top notch care. I also don't spend thousands of dollars for it. My wife had her ER visit declined and now am stuck with 4,000. Read about the millions of people being screwed by the health companies, not to mention the millions that are being run out of their homes and jobs due to the HIGh costs. This is just one example. The huge cuts in employment and destruction of manufacturing was due to less restrictions on private sector employers so they cut corners and laws to protect workers. READ all about it. I recommend you do some serious digging. Obviously debating with you is a loose end, along with many people who continue to ignore the FACTS. I just get tire of listening to you and many others HATE talk about Obama and the lies being posted. Sorry to bring some reality to the issue but I didn't spell out the entire laundry list of what bush and obama have done or didn't do. I didn't list every single thing that this country has F'd up on since the late 70's, but if you really want to know do some real research. I am finishing up my major for economics and political science and have done countless hours studying and the whole system is a mess. I know that no reform of anything is what your party wants, and the continued destruction of this country for average Americans. Look at all the policies they have enacted and have chipped away at policies that are/have been in place. I'm an independent and am not in awe over Obama or the democrats but I like the idea of change for the better. less government isn't always good, more government isn't always good, but total loss of government is bad and private control is horrible. I guess striping away the laws for American citizens is good. The patriot act, and opening the door to corporate welfare is the best I guess, among other things. You know the story of Superman right? How his father tried to warn the "political powers" about the SUN destroying their planet, well that was saw as a scary thing, so they went with the other scientists who said, no krypton is just shifting orbit or what-have-you.. we'll be okay. Well guess what, they were wrong. Why? Well because it's hard, very hard to look catastrophe in the face and really deal with a problem on a global scale, but it's much easier to just push it under the rug. So do what many Americans have done over the last few decades, close your eyes, and then wake up and realize that the bus left. I think American's in the majority have realized this, and hopefully they haven't been asleep too long. The future will tell what will happen. And while the rest of the world looks at OUR policies and laugh at how America has been turned over to private control where the democratic republic once stood maybe then all Americans will know the truth, maybe not.
My only responce is, what makes it the governments (aka THE TAXPAYERS) responsibility to pay for yours or anyone else medical bills? Where is that "right" granted to any of us?
Actually no, that isn't my only response. First of all you obviously have no idea that I believe in. You don't care either. You think because I disagree with you and Obama, that I am a Republican zombie through and through and you my friend are sadly mistaken. I do NOT like or agree with the majority of the Patriot Act. It is sad that just because someone doesn't agree with the President you call it HATE talk as if I'm calling for some radical take over of the country, yet you can slam President Bush 24/7 and that is constructive in your mind. I never called that hate speech, so why is it when they don't agree with you it is?
Don't sit there and pretend to know how much I have studied or what kind of education I have because it just makes you look like a wanna be elitest and it is very disrepectful. I have never been disrespectful to you and I would appreciate you keeping this on a civil level.
Since 1901, the Nobel Prize has been honoring men and women from all corners of the globe for outstanding achievements in physics, chemistry, medicine, literature, and for work in peace. The foundations for the prize were laid in 1895 when Alfred Nobel wrote his last will, leaving much of his wealth to the establishment of the Nobel Prize. But who was Alfred Nobel? Articles, photographs, a slide show and poetry written by Nobel himself are presented here to give a glimpse of a man whose varied interests are reflected in the prize he established. Meet Alfred Nobel - scientist, inventor, entrepreneur, author and pacifist.
... you went on that anti-Bush tirade like he was claiming that Bush deserved the Nobel Peace Price.
...but he didnt either.
Like it or not, Obama is tending to lean to the Fascist side. I know, i know... the political left in this country has been claiming for years that the political right is Fascist so theres "no way that a liberal can be one"
BS to all of that malarkey.
both the left and the right have had a tendency to violate the rights of the individual in some form or another.
social programs are both a fascist idea and a communist idea. Hitler, after all, socialized medicine. (this is not a comparison of hitler and obama, it is just a fact to point out that social programs existed in a fascist regime)
there is a difference between them though...
Socialists believe in government ownership of the means of production. Fascists believed in government control of privately owned businesses, which is much more the style of this government. That way, politicians can intervene whenever they feel like it and then, when their interventions turn out badly, summon executives from the private sector before Congress and denounce them on nationwide television.
but ill stick with webster... Fascist
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
Communism 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
based off of dictionary definitions (not philosophical definitions) Obama does tend to lean to the Fascist side.
if you can also support your claim that republicans want corporations to run the US (and have been) i would like to hear your argument.
Actually Obama was nominated back then along with hundreds of others. It wasn't finalized until a few days ago. And the peace prize was most often given to people for their ideals and agendas to promote peace, not what they had accomplished.
when i use any wiki page im told how unreliable it is. it seems that your definition has been taken off the table.
phobicsquirrel:
Actually it is a merge of government and corporate interests.
...forced into being by the government.
phobicsquirrel:
Sorry to tell you but leaving our fates to corporations is, well look at what has happened.
what? we became one of the most powerful, productive, wealthy, envied, technologically advanced, and most charitable countries in the history of the world?
wow. that does suck.
phobicsquirrel:
I bet that you would love to give up everything run by the government and hand it over to private business.
yes
phobicsquirrel:
I'd love to see you do it, but you wouldn't.
yes i would
phobicsquirrel:
Go a head, we know that banks, wallstreet, healthcare, the private corporate militaries, prisons .... are run so well and really work for the best interest of the American People. GET REAL.
they did before the government stuck their nose in everything. the government has a hand in regulating everything. we dont have the "free market" that you claim to hate so much. Government is way less efficiant than a corporation. why? because they dont have to turn a profit to exist. they dont have to answer to anyone.
absolute power corrupts absolutely
phobicsquirrel:
Obama is really pushing towards fascism, yeah and we never won WWII.
... how are these two connected?
phobicsquirrel:
So trying to take control from private companies that continue to profit from people getting sick and dying and make it so that doesn't happen is fascist?
no but a government forcing a company to deal with regulations with no regard to the company, the people involved or how much it costs IS fascist.
...and its very hard to turn a profit from a dead person...
phobicsquirrel:
Yeah, sure.. sorry puro but you are dead wrong.
you have yet to prove that.
phobicsquirrel:
I love the VA healthcare, I've never been turned away and get top notch care.
no, the American taxpayer is stuck with that bill....
phobicsquirrel:
My wife had her ER visit declined and now am stuck with 4,000.
declined by the insurance company? did she get her health care?
phobicsquirrel:
Read about the millions of people being screwed by the health companies, not to mention the millions that are being run out of their homes and jobs due to the HIGh costs.
they are getting screwed by the company because they cannot afford a service that is made artificially expensive by mandates from the government requiting them to cover things they wouldnt cover. such as AIDS in california.
since you cannot be denied coverage if you have aids, and it costs more for your medical treatment than id you didnt have AIDS, it costs more for everyone, if the insurance company wants to remain open. this type of thing has happened all over the country, forcing premiums to skyrocket.
then when the "cost gets out of hand" they cart the CEOs of the insurance companies in front of a camera and blame the cost on them. .... just like all other fascist governments have done in the past...
phobicsquirrel:
The huge cuts in employment and destruction of manufacturing was due to less restrictions on private sector employers so they cut corners and laws to protect workers.
i call BS on this. the US is more regulated now through a combination of government agencies and taxes than it ever has before. here is an A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies. All of these listed have some sort of regulation on your life, or the life of someone you may know.
AND
the US corporate Tax rate is one of the highest in the world. why wouldnt i go to a cheaper country to make a profit? its just plain dumb to set up shop where it costs more money to exist.
not to mention the entire HOUSING CRISIS...
when people cant sell things they cant afford to pay their employees. this leads to lay offs.
...and nobody has a "right" to a job. you have a right to look for one, but not a right to have one.
the loss of jobs has to do with the loss of the credit market. if you cant buy big ticket items because of lack of credit, then those companies arent making money.
phobicsquirrel:
READ all about it. I recommend you do some serious digging. Obviously debating with you is a loose end, along with many people who continue to ignore the FACTS.
i always reference my claims. show me my facts are wrong without using a wiki page.
phobicsquirrel:
I just get tire of listening to you and many others HATE talk about Obama and the lies being posted.
i dont hate Obama. he seems like a nice guy. i just disagree with his policy.
prove that i am not being truthful.
phobicsquirrel:
... this country has F'd up on since the late 70's,
i agree.
phobicsquirrel:
less government isn't always good
the only time that this statement is true is if the only job of the government is to protect the rights of the individual.
phobicsquirrel:
more government isn't always good, but total loss of government is bad
i agree. the government has a roll and should play that roll ONLY.
phobicsquirrel:
and private control is horrible.
because people are too stupid to run their own lives? private control is what made this country great. we all had the right to live our lives as we saw fit (providing we did not infringe on the rights of others)... then, as always happens, the government creeps in and tries to control our lives.
i have an idea. since you seem to like faceless power controlling you, how about i dictate Everything you do? what??!? you dont like that idea?!?! how is a group of people controlling your life any different?
phobicsquirrel:
I guess striping away the laws for American citizens is good.
laws that protect the rights of the individual are good. any others are bad.
phobicsquirrel:
The patriot act, and opening the door to corporate welfare is the best I guess, among other things.
corporate welfare? like handing out american tax dollars to the auto industry?
phobicsquirrel:
You know the story of Superman right? How his father tried to warn the "political powers" about the SUN destroying their planet, well that was saw as a scary thing, so they went with the other scientists who said, no krypton is just shifting orbit or what-have-you.. we'll be okay. Well guess what, they were wrong. Why? Well because it's hard, very hard to look catastrophe in the face and really deal with a problem on a global scale, but it's much easier to just push it under the rug. So do what many Americans have done over the last few decades, close your eyes, and then wake up and realize that the bus left. I think American's in the majority have realized this, and hopefully they haven't been asleep too long. The future will tell what will happen. And while the rest of the world looks at OUR policies and laugh at how America has been turned over to private control where the democratic republic once stood maybe then all Americans will know the truth, maybe not.
yeah ... they have been asleep. asleep while our government has been taking rights away slowly.... ...through taxes on things that dont need to be taxed, through government programs that create a dependence on the government, through regulations of privately owned businesses, through laws that attempt to control behavior that does not violate the rights of others...
Case in point, no amount of proof will let you see the truth. If less government and more control of corporations really worked then the state of US economic problems that are going on now would not be there. Yes and america is waking up, look at the last election.
Case in point, no amount of proof will let you see the truth. If less government and more control of corporations really worked then the state of US economic problems that are going on now would not be there. Yes and america is waking up, look at the last election.
we have yet to try less government.
less government is less control over corporations. i dont understand your comment at all here.
Case in point, no amount of proof will let you see the truth. If less government and more control of corporations really worked then the state of US economic problems that are going on now would not be there. Yes and america is waking up, look at the last election.
This doesn't make any sense. In the last 30 years the amount of government control over corporations has grown faster than in any time in our history and things have gone to sh*t... How does that prove your point?
Im again glad to see you keep trying here Squirrel.....but as George Carlin once talked about.....its tough to have conversations logically when not everyone has gotten to the "age of reason" yet. But at least its lively fun....if it were Bush, Limbaugh, Hannity, or the like minded idiots like them getting the prize (of course its for peace, so that could never happen).....we would be told to believe it was the greatest thing since the immaculate conception, or at least the crucifixtion.
Im again glad to see you keep trying here Squirrel.....but as George Carlin once talked about.....its tough to have conversations logically when not everyone has gotten to the "age of reason" yet. But at least its lively fun....if it were Bush, Limbaugh, Hannity, or the like minded idiots like them getting the prize (of course its for peace, so that could never happen).....we would be told to believe it was the greatest thing since the immaculate conception, or at least the crucifixtion.
could you explain to me how this is not an attack to the people that are arguing a different point of view than yourself rather than a reasoned argument why you think your side is right?
could you also explain how the arguments are not logically presented?
whlioe youre at it could you explain why you refuse to live up to your very standard? ( you did not logically point out why we are wrong or logically point out how we are not being reasonable)
since you were not paying attention:
i already said Bush doesnt deserve the Peace prize. (because of his wars) (to tack on)
neither does Hannity (because he has the same problem as Obama, he has yet to actually DO anything beyond talk to promote peace),
or Limbaugh (same as before).
quit assuming things, and quit putting words in our mouths.
while you are at it, quit looking down at me, or anyone else that disagrees with you. If you look at my well referenced posts, you will see there is logic to them.
if you feel that i am being illogical, please feel free to point it out and use facts to back it up. dont just sit there and insult me and say that i have yet to reach the age of reason. (implications that i am a child) I would never insult you in that manor.
but i will stand up for what i think is right.
and that is individual rights over everything.
and PS.. im not religious so your religious references do not apply to me as well.
You will not find a logical debate with him. He will look down on you and insult you with an elitist attitude and resort to personal attacks and emotional ramblings because that is much easier. I've come to expect no more from him. I disagree with Phebes, but at least he tries to have a real debate and doesn't just spout insults at anyone who disagrees with him most of the time.
You will not find a logical debate with him. He will look down on you and insult you with an elitist attitude and resort to personal attacks and emotional ramblings because that is much easier. I've come to expect no more from him.
though this may or may not be (im not sure i have not looked it up) a true statement, i tend not to look at the past as an indication of future actions. though history has had patterns and and themes that run through it, i will never apply them to individuals because there is always an unknown factor. maybe something will change. maybe it wont.
either way i refuse to attack someone on a personal level in the context of a debate that is happening for the purpose of learning. If i did, i would become who i hate.
instead i chose to challenge people who make arguments to back up their claims with facts. if they do, i can counter with other facts and the stimulating debate can continue. If they do nothing then it is just a post that will soon be forgotten. If more personal attacks ensue, then that person is discredited in the realm of reasonable, rational debate.
I too disagree with Pheebs... but i like the guy. i like his passion for issues. i like that he makes me think. I can respect that.
wanna see america wake up? ... look at the NEXT elections.
I'll second that. Just hope this healthcare bill can stall long enough till the elections.
so you want to keep having rates increase 20-30 percent? I always try to see points of view but there really isn't a point of view here. I guess some people like being exploited. I wish everyone had a system of healthcare like the VA or even medicare. Of course your insurance company will be there for you and pay out any expenses. And hopefully you won't join the countless millions that have been screwed, but maybe you think it's fair to have a system like we have.... I don't know like volchor said, there really isn't a point to try to show any evidence. Kuzi, I don't think we look down at you or anyone else, it's just that you people just seem to miss the facts. Kuzi, you really do a great job at pointing out sources and such but saying things like what Obama has done is just missing the bus. heres a list of winners http://nobelprizes.com/nobel/peace/peace.html
Like the announcer of the current award said, the prize isn't always given for what the winner has done but what they want to accomplish. You can keep the same "fox" and right wing approach and keep up the rhetoric, but it just shows a lack of knowing what the prize is all about. For the record, I do think giving Obama the prize was pre-mature but as to where this country was 1 year ago, and where we are now, we've come a long way. Especially in the eyes of the world. People need to realize that outside our boarders this country hasn't been very well liked over the last 8 years and maybe even before. The attitudes of the world have began to lighten to the US and that is evident all over and a big reason why Obama won. One of the biggest accomplishments was getting Russia and China to come along and help with the Iran negotiations. Also helping with North Korea. Talks with these "unstable" countries have resumed and diplomacy is at the forefront rather than using the military. The wars are winding down and I'm sure, though we will be in Afghanistan for a while longer the strategy is shifting and about time. Bombing countries and attacking people do not really work, especially in places like the middle east and ESPECIALLY when we are going up against insurgents. Now if the entire country was the objective, like Japan in WWII then sure but occupying a country doesn't really work unless it's on complete lock-down but if the country itself wasn't the mission then it's in vein. I love the republican response to diplomacy, ATTACK! Lie about intel and use it to move the military machine. Anyone who has been in real combat has a acute understanding that it SHOULD be the last objective.
but i will stand up for what i think is right.
and that is individual rights over everything.
I find that statement rather hypocritical since you are against giving people health reform that will allow them to not to be treated as cattle and have real protection when they do get sick. No having people pay more and more for coverage every year and are hanging by a thread of coverage based on a company? Have you not paid attention to anything? Wendle Potter has spoken out repeadily (he was a former exec at signa, and handled pr), to the millions of people who have been F*cked and left to die. Going bankrupt so the leeches get their millions?
You continue to support corporate takeover of America and to limit restrictions on them. Pointing out the government is the evil, which if that was true and since there has been less government control of this country in it's history over the last few decades (more in the last 8) then why did this country end up in the current mess, not to mention the world economy? Millions of jobs have left our country, manufacturing has been a almost distant memory, we now are the largest importer of goods rather than being the exporter of them, the top 1% own more capital then 95% of us, that the real power of the every day operations of this country are hanging by a corporate thread.....
How are millions upon millions of people being laid off, left to go after scraps while big business's get their money and rob the wealth of the country? If you want to see a real interesting film go see moore's capitalism, a love story. It's a really well done film and it's really rather middle sided. There isn't a bash on either side but does give it to both. I learned a few things, maybe you will too. The said thing is that there really isn't opinions anymore, it's more of who's right. And the current state of our country shows it. I know urby has tried to point out some turths, I have, as has Laker but you and others just haven't been able to show we are wrong. Just look at what has happened, it's right in front of you.
Well stated squirrel (again), and I know myself and I could go on and on about "facts" and give url's to links to support my point...but life and time limits my ability to do this. Also, as you stated, its not as though minds are open to any idea that is perceived as "left wing, socialist, communist, obamaesque, resembling Pelosi, left of Chavez," or any other idea that falls out of line with peoples individual opinion on politics/current events. And since every post with any "facts" listed would simply be shot down with other "facts" which support a different opinion and attempt to prove yours wrong....who acts elitist now? And as far as personal attacks, some people simply put their feelings or thoughts out here, not to offend or hurt----just to have a voice heard in a friendly forum, and maybe put in a little dark humor....others try to masquerade "personal attacks" with long winded retorts to other posts or debating what the meaning of is, is. Im not looking to start trouble, just looking to eschew obsfuscation.
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Your right on this one snake, and nor have I ever known anyone denied for immediate or urgent care...and in my job I see that alot---as well as a lot of people who have no insurance. The problem is very wide...hospital rates are NO DOUBT up there, court litigation, Dr. fees for services, procedures completed on illigal aliens-----just to name a few. I wish like hel! I had an idea of how to fix it----but the best I ever think of is band aids that work in one area and hurt another. While reform is needed, I am glad I am not one of the ones trying to please people-----of course Im not happy that politicians who care more about reelection that actual reforms either:/
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
AMEN! TORT reform would be one of the best ways to change the problems with the healthcare system. When a Dr. has to pay $100,000 a year just to protect himself if he gets sued because he couldn't save some junkey who over dosed, that makes him have to raise his prices to cover his costs which are MANDATED BY THE GOVERNEMNT. Now tell me again how more government regulation is a good thing...
Tort reform isn't the only thing that needs to change, but it is a BIG one.
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Other than an ER not refusing treatment everything else is false. The whole health care system is based on profit and hospitals are on a pay for service system. Why is it that if you go to say, Japan for a MRI it's about 100 bucks, but here it goes upwards over 1,000? Has nothing to do with the un-insured going to the ER. Does the constitution say anything about having police, does it say anything about have a highway system, does it say anything about having the fire department.. I can go on. These things are done for the good of the commons which is in there, the government is for the good of the commons. And going to the ER for a "health" plan just isn't practical. Do some research and read/hear about the millions of people who go and do this for head trauma or internal problems and then get turned away only to come back months or years later and now their problem is fatal. Government can't run anything well? Hmm, well how about the police, fire department, highways, military, post office, cia, nsa, airports.... I'm sure you'd love to have to pay police to show up, or the fire department to put out the fire in your home (it was tried in a state, maybe a couple of having private fire departments and it failed). How about having to pay per mile to drive, or having tolls all over the place to get to one area to another? So just because you haven't had a denied claim, does that mean it doesn't happen? This is all continuous cycle around these parts, my GOD. Is everything okay and nothing needs done until something happens to you or your family? What would you say to anyone who had their wife, daughter, husband, grandma, son.... who had their claim denied, got denied during cancer treatment, got dropped after years of paying for insurance because of acne as a child and didn't put it on the forms, ... the list goes on. Or just the HUGE increases to people's premiums or the companies premiums every year! Do you like paying that? And while rates keep going up, the companies pay their ceo's hundreds of millions of dollars, and using the money from premiums to lobby congress, and pay for houses and jets and other non-essentials? Do you know that health care in this country isn't care? Hospitals do not practice medicine, and in a lot of cases are pigeon held by what a person from the insurance of the patient says can or cannot be done? If this is your idea of America, a system which exploits the suffering and death of people to make money. Seriously dude, read about it. Wendle potter who use to be a Exec at Signa has been trying to tell people the truth behind the health insurance lobby for a while now, and he's just one in the pot of hundreds, even thousands of people in the medical field and even who use to work for insurance companies. And just read about the millions of people who have had their lives destroyed from these leeches. Why defend an institution that has anything but "your" best intentions in mind. That ravishes the lives of the people who they say they insure? My wife got denied her ER visit and 4000 dollars later and nothing was done in the ER to help her stomach pain and every test was done. Is that justice? Is that fair. If I do work for a client and then I don't do what I said I would do, then bill them what would happen? Well I could get brought into court, have the police on me. YOU can't sue the insurance company and your rights to a trial are almost impossible!!! It is a law called erisa. Sometimes a person may win a case but only for the amounts of their insurance premiums. it's a slippery slope. With all the evidence and all the information about the health insurance industry I'm amazed at how people can even defend them.
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Other than an ER not refusing treatment everything else is false. The whole health care system is based on profit and hospitals are on a pay for service system. Why is it that if you go to say, Japan for a MRI it's about 100 bucks, but here it goes upwards over 1,000? Has nothing to do with the un-insured going to the ER. Does the constitution say anything about having police, does it say anything about have a highway system, does it say anything about having the fire department.. I can go on. These things are done for the good of the commons which is in there, the government is for the good of the commons. And going to the ER for a "health" plan just isn't practical. Do some research and read/hear about the millions of people who go and do this for head trauma or internal problems and then get turned away only to come back months or years later and now their problem is fatal. Government can't run anything well? Hmm, well how about the police, fire department, highways, military, post office, cia, nsa, airports.... I'm sure you'd love to have to pay police to show up, or the fire department to put out the fire in your home (it was tried in a state, maybe a couple of having private fire departments and it failed). How about having to pay per mile to drive, or having tolls all over the place to get to one area to another? So just because you haven't had a denied claim, does that mean it doesn't happen? This is all continuous cycle around these parts, my GOD. Is everything okay and nothing needs done until something happens to you or your family? What would you say to anyone who had their wife, daughter, husband, grandma, son.... who had their claim denied, got denied during cancer treatment, got dropped after years of paying for insurance because of acne as a child and didn't put it on the forms, ... the list goes on. Or just the HUGE increases to people's premiums or the companies premiums every year! Do you like paying that? And while rates keep going up, the companies pay their ceo's hundreds of millions of dollars, and using the money from premiums to lobby congress, and pay for houses and jets and other non-essentials? Do you know that health care in this country isn't care? Hospitals do not practice medicine, and in a lot of cases are pigeon held by what a person from the insurance of the patient says can or cannot be done? If this is your idea of America, a system which exploits the suffering and death of people to make money. Seriously dude, read about it. Wendle potter who use to be a Exec at Signa has been trying to tell people the truth behind the health insurance lobby for a while now, and he's just one in the pot of hundreds, even thousands of people in the medical field and even who use to work for insurance companies. And just read about the millions of people who have had their lives destroyed from these leeches. Why defend an institution that has anything but "your" best intentions in mind. That ravishes the lives of the people who they say they insure? My wife got denied her ER visit and 4000 dollars later and nothing was done in the ER to help her stomach pain and every test was done. Is that justice? Is that fair. If I do work for a client and then I don't do what I said I would do, then bill them what would happen? Well I could get brought into court, have the police on me. YOU can't sue the insurance company and your rights to a trial are almost impossible!!! It is a law called erisa. Sometimes a person may win a case but only for the amounts of their insurance premiums. it's a slippery slope. With all the evidence and all the information about the health insurance industry I'm amazed at how people can even defend them.
I am not saying I support the way things are. I do not want people to die or suffer. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean I am a heartless b@stard. I wasn't sure what to call it but tort reform is what we need. These fat pigs running these insurance companies IMO shouldn't be making millions a year either. Businesses that are failing shouldn't be bailed out by the government and then hand out millions in bonuses. If a business is failing who the hell earned a bonus?
When I say government run programs do not work I am talking federal government. US Postal Service loses millions of dollars every year and they keep pumping money into it. That is just one example. Of course I understand your point about police and fire service. You are wrong though. I have worked in law enforcement and there are police services you do have to pay for and unincorporated ares that you have to pay for fire service directly. For example in certain cities if you have so many false alarms you have to start paying every time the police respond to your residence. If you do not pay they stop responding and you get fined. I think for the most part that states need to govern themselves not the federal government. That is pretty much how things were intended in the first place by our forefathers.
Seriously point out a successful federal government program that wasn't mired in corruption, high costs, and utter failure. What the current administration is suggesting is not the solution. So many other ways to look at this and fix it without mandating government controlled health care. You make good points but what will you say when someone you love is in their 60s or 70s and needs an operation and the government decides they have lived a good enough life or they are sick because of their lifestyle choices? I guarantee you they will pick and choose who gets what. Funny thing is if it is so good why have our government officials decided it isn't good enough for them!
I am not 100% disagreeing with anyone here at all. Almost everyone has made some valid points and arguments. It would be nice if our government could get past Republican and Democrat long enough to enact real change that is the best for all of us. Instead they just want to slam the other as hard as they can and with extreme measures that will cost us all. They are gready corrupt pigs that care about nothing but themselves and their power they have achieved. ALL OF THEM. We might disagree but hey man we are in this together!!
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Other than an ER not refusing treatment everything else is false. The whole health care system is based on profit and hospitals are on a pay for service system. Why is it that if you go to say, Japan for a MRI it's about 100 bucks, but here it goes upwards over 1,000? Has nothing to do with the un-insured going to the ER. Does the constitution say anything about having police, does it say anything about have a highway system, does it say anything about having the fire department.. I can go on. These things are done for the good of the commons which is in there, the government is for the good of the commons. And going to the ER for a "health" plan just isn't practical. Do some research and read/hear about the millions of people who go and do this for head trauma or internal problems and then get turned away only to come back months or years later and now their problem is fatal. Government can't run anything well? Hmm, well how about the police, fire department, highways, military, post office, cia, nsa, airports.... I'm sure you'd love to have to pay police to show up, or the fire department to put out the fire in your home (it was tried in a state, maybe a couple of having private fire departments and it failed). How about having to pay per mile to drive, or having tolls all over the place to get to one area to another? So just because you haven't had a denied claim, does that mean it doesn't happen? This is all continuous cycle around these parts, my GOD. Is everything okay and nothing needs done until something happens to you or your family? What would you say to anyone who had their wife, daughter, husband, grandma, son.... who had their claim denied, got denied during cancer treatment, got dropped after years of paying for insurance because of acne as a child and didn't put it on the forms, ... the list goes on. Or just the HUGE increases to people's premiums or the companies premiums every year! Do you like paying that? And while rates keep going up, the companies pay their ceo's hundreds of millions of dollars, and using the money from premiums to lobby congress, and pay for houses and jets and other non-essentials? Do you know that health care in this country isn't care? Hospitals do not practice medicine, and in a lot of cases are pigeon held by what a person from the insurance of the patient says can or cannot be done? If this is your idea of America, a system which exploits the suffering and death of people to make money. Seriously dude, read about it. Wendle potter who use to be a Exec at Signa has been trying to tell people the truth behind the health insurance lobby for a while now, and he's just one in the pot of hundreds, even thousands of people in the medical field and even who use to work for insurance companies. And just read about the millions of people who have had their lives destroyed from these leeches. Why defend an institution that has anything but "your" best intentions in mind. That ravishes the lives of the people who they say they insure? My wife got denied her ER visit and 4000 dollars later and nothing was done in the ER to help her stomach pain and every test was done. Is that justice? Is that fair. If I do work for a client and then I don't do what I said I would do, then bill them what would happen? Well I could get brought into court, have the police on me. YOU can't sue the insurance company and your rights to a trial are almost impossible!!! It is a law called erisa. Sometimes a person may win a case but only for the amounts of their insurance premiums. it's a slippery slope. With all the evidence and all the information about the health insurance industry I'm amazed at how people can even defend them.
I am not saying I support the way things are. I do not want people to die or suffer. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean I am a heartless b@stard. I wasn't sure what to call it but tort reform is what we need. These fat pigs running these insurance companies IMO shouldn't be making millions a year either. Businesses that are failing shouldn't be bailed out by the government and then hand out millions in bonuses. If a business is failing who the hell earned a bonus?
When I say government run programs do not work I am talking federal government. US Postal Service loses millions of dollars every year and they keep pumping money into it. That is just one example. Of course I understand your point about police and fire service. You are wrong though. I have worked in law enforcement and there are police services you do have to pay for and unincorporated ares that you have to pay for fire service directly. For example in certain cities if you have so many false alarms you have to start paying every time the police respond to your residence. If you do not pay they stop responding and you get fined. I think for the most part that states need to govern themselves not the federal government. That is pretty much how things were intended in the first place by our forefathers.
Seriously point out a successful federal government program that wasn't mired in corruption, high costs, and utter failure. What the current administration is suggesting is not the solution. So many other ways to look at this and fix it without mandating government controlled health care. You make good points but what will you say when someone you love is in their 60s or 70s and needs an operation and the government decides they have lived a good enough life or they are sick because of their lifestyle choices? I guarantee you they will pick and choose who gets what. Funny thing is if it is so good why have our government officials decided it isn't good enough for them!
I am not 100% disagreeing with anyone here at all. Almost everyone has made some valid points and arguments. It would be nice if our government could get past Republican and Democrat long enough to enact real change that is the best for all of us. Instead they just want to slam the other as hard as they can and with extreme measures that will cost us all. They are gready corrupt pigs that care about nothing but themselves and their power they have achieved. ALL OF THEM. We might disagree but hey man we are in this together!!
Now, can I get an Amen on some Fair Tax please?
torte makes up a small fraction of costs, it is not the problem. though an amendment is in one or a few of the current bills. True, sometimes it costs to have the fire department come out and such but if someone is pulling false alarms and such it should be expected. The postal service has it's problems, no entity is free of them, that would just not be practice. And the government hasn't denied people on medicare for getting treatment, and they are the highest risk for expenses. The VA doesn't deny care but Insurance companies do. That argument that the govt will deny care based on if someone lived a good enough life or doesn't have long to live is false. I'd rather have a body that is answerable to the people rather than not. People can protest the govt, can heckle and what not them but try doing that at a insurance company or bank, or at wall street, you'll get arrested or pushed away from them. WE have no say. You'd want to continue that trend? And govt workers already have a plan which is administered by the govt, as does the military. I loved my care in the military though I never had a office job in the city to take advantage of going to civilian hospitals but I do like my VA.
Can anyone here show me where in the Constitution it says you have the right to government health care or welfare? We already have tax payer provided health care. No one can be denied health care when they go to the hospital. Read the signs next time you go to the ER. They cannot deny you health care due to your inability to pay. So we the tax payer pay for it in the long run already.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Other than an ER not refusing treatment everything else is false. The whole health care system is based on profit and hospitals are on a pay for service system. Why is it that if you go to say, Japan for a MRI it's about 100 bucks, but here it goes upwards over 1,000? Has nothing to do with the un-insured going to the ER. Does the constitution say anything about having police, does it say anything about have a highway system, does it say anything about having the fire department.. I can go on. These things are done for the good of the commons which is in there, the government is for the good of the commons. And going to the ER for a "health" plan just isn't practical. Do some research and read/hear about the millions of people who go and do this for head trauma or internal problems and then get turned away only to come back months or years later and now their problem is fatal. Government can't run anything well? Hmm, well how about the police, fire department, highways, military, post office, cia, nsa, airports.... I'm sure you'd love to have to pay police to show up, or the fire department to put out the fire in your home (it was tried in a state, maybe a couple of having private fire departments and it failed). How about having to pay per mile to drive, or having tolls all over the place to get to one area to another? So just because you haven't had a denied claim, does that mean it doesn't happen? This is all continuous cycle around these parts, my GOD. Is everything okay and nothing needs done until something happens to you or your family? What would you say to anyone who had their wife, daughter, husband, grandma, son.... who had their claim denied, got denied during cancer treatment, got dropped after years of paying for insurance because of acne as a child and didn't put it on the forms, ... the list goes on. Or just the HUGE increases to people's premiums or the companies premiums every year! Do you like paying that? And while rates keep going up, the companies pay their ceo's hundreds of millions of dollars, and using the money from premiums to lobby congress, and pay for houses and jets and other non-essentials? Do you know that health care in this country isn't care? Hospitals do not practice medicine, and in a lot of cases are pigeon held by what a person from the insurance of the patient says can or cannot be done? If this is your idea of America, a system which exploits the suffering and death of people to make money. Seriously dude, read about it. Wendle potter who use to be a Exec at Signa has been trying to tell people the truth behind the health insurance lobby for a while now, and he's just one in the pot of hundreds, even thousands of people in the medical field and even who use to work for insurance companies. And just read about the millions of people who have had their lives destroyed from these leeches. Why defend an institution that has anything but "your" best intentions in mind. That ravishes the lives of the people who they say they insure? My wife got denied her ER visit and 4000 dollars later and nothing was done in the ER to help her stomach pain and every test was done. Is that justice? Is that fair. If I do work for a client and then I don't do what I said I would do, then bill them what would happen? Well I could get brought into court, have the police on me. YOU can't sue the insurance company and your rights to a trial are almost impossible!!! It is a law called erisa. Sometimes a person may win a case but only for the amounts of their insurance premiums. it's a slippery slope. With all the evidence and all the information about the health insurance industry I'm amazed at how people can even defend them.
I am not saying I support the way things are. I do not want people to die or suffer. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean I am a heartless b@stard. I wasn't sure what to call it but tort reform is what we need. These fat pigs running these insurance companies IMO shouldn't be making millions a year either. Businesses that are failing shouldn't be bailed out by the government and then hand out millions in bonuses. If a business is failing who the hell earned a bonus?
When I say government run programs do not work I am talking federal government. US Postal Service loses millions of dollars every year and they keep pumping money into it. That is just one example. Of course I understand your point about police and fire service. You are wrong though. I have worked in law enforcement and there are police services you do have to pay for and unincorporated ares that you have to pay for fire service directly. For example in certain cities if you have so many false alarms you have to start paying every time the police respond to your residence. If you do not pay they stop responding and you get fined. I think for the most part that states need to govern themselves not the federal government. That is pretty much how things were intended in the first place by our forefathers.
Seriously point out a successful federal government program that wasn't mired in corruption, high costs, and utter failure. What the current administration is suggesting is not the solution. So many other ways to look at this and fix it without mandating government controlled health care. You make good points but what will you say when someone you love is in their 60s or 70s and needs an operation and the government decides they have lived a good enough life or they are sick because of their lifestyle choices? I guarantee you they will pick and choose who gets what. Funny thing is if it is so good why have our government officials decided it isn't good enough for them!
I am not 100% disagreeing with anyone here at all. Almost everyone has made some valid points and arguments. It would be nice if our government could get past Republican and Democrat long enough to enact real change that is the best for all of us. Instead they just want to slam the other as hard as they can and with extreme measures that will cost us all. They are gready corrupt pigs that care about nothing but themselves and their power they have achieved. ALL OF THEM. We might disagree but hey man we are in this together!!
Now, can I get an Amen on some Fair Tax please?
I will agree that most are corrupt pigs but a big part of that is the MONEY that is in congress. If that was no longer a factor things would be much different. And as far as taxes go, that would be the republicans for taking a 90% tax on upper income (can't remember what the cap was), cutting that in half (reagan) then again with the loopholes and then again the bush tax cuts. While everyday Americans have had slight increases, and a flat line in income growth and that's if people can keep their jobs. Also a huge number of families, maybe even most families can no longer support themselves in a responsible manner. Working two, three jobs, using credit to fill in the gaps, and all the while their relationships crumble and children live without their parents. The economic crisis goes much farther than just wall street and the dollar. It affects us all in many, many ways. Yes fair taxes would be nice, and unless I or you make over millions of dollars we won't get that "fair" tax. Though the republicans keep pushing down any kind of fair taxation.
Comments
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, which overruled the Supreme Court's decision in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. and so eased the requirements for filing employment discrimination lawsuits.
This isn't about his policy or who agrees with him or not, it's about what he had done to be nominated for the prize. Nominations were due by Feb 1st 2009. One piece of law signed into effect is not enough to merrit the Nobel Peace Prize... You just proved 100% this was a total politacl move when they gave him the award.
And why is when anyone says anything about Obama, you don't defend him as much as you bash Bush... Bush wasn't a great president. I'm not a huge fan. I agree with some of what he did, but disagree with a LOT of his policies. This isn't about Bush, he isn't running for office and never will again.
Also your defenition of Fascism was nothing more than someone's long winded interpretation of what they think Fascism is. I will link my sources. Fascism summed up on dictionary.com is :
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fascism
From Merriam-Webster :
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Fascism
It has nothing to do with corporations running the government and that was a serious stretch. Look at the amount of government control the Obama Administration is pushing for and how he wants to silence his critics. The left is a lot closer to being fascists than we have ever seen in this country. The Bush administration wasn't much better in this area, but they didn't fight for the amount of government control our current administration is seeking.
Actually no, that isn't my only response. First of all you obviously have no idea that I believe in. You don't care either. You think because I disagree with you and Obama, that I am a Republican zombie through and through and you my friend are sadly mistaken. I do NOT like or agree with the majority of the Patriot Act. It is sad that just because someone doesn't agree with the President you call it HATE talk as if I'm calling for some radical take over of the country, yet you can slam President Bush 24/7 and that is constructive in your mind. I never called that hate speech, so why is it when they don't agree with you it is?
Don't sit there and pretend to know how much I have studied or what kind of education I have because it just makes you look like a wanna be elitest and it is very disrepectful. I have never been disrespectful to you and I would appreciate you keeping this on a civil level.
http://nobelprize.org/alfred_nobel/
Since 1901, the Nobel Prize has been honoring men and women from all corners of the globe for outstanding achievements in physics, chemistry, medicine, literature, and for work in peace. The foundations for the prize were laid in 1895 when Alfred Nobel wrote his last will, leaving much of his wealth to the establishment of the Nobel Prize. But who was Alfred Nobel? Articles, photographs, a slide show and poetry written by Nobel himself are presented here to give a glimpse of a man whose varied interests are reflected in the prize he established. Meet Alfred Nobel - scientist, inventor, entrepreneur, author and pacifist.
...but he didnt either.
Like it or not, Obama is tending to lean to the Fascist side.
I know, i know... the political left in this country has been claiming for years that the political right is Fascist so theres "no way that a liberal can be one"
BS to all of that malarkey.
both the left and the right have had a tendency to violate the rights of the individual in some form or another.
social programs are both a fascist idea and a communist idea. Hitler, after all, socialized medicine. (this is not a comparison of hitler and obama, it is just a fact to point out that social programs existed in a fascist regime)
there is a difference between them though...
Socialists believe in government ownership of the means of production. Fascists believed in government control of privately owned businesses, which is much more the style of this government. That way, politicians can intervene whenever they feel like it and then, when their interventions turn out badly, summon executives from the private sector before Congress and denounce them on nationwide television.
but ill stick with webster...
Fascist
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
Communism
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
based off of dictionary definitions (not philosophical definitions) Obama does tend to lean to the Fascist side.
if you can also support your claim that republicans want corporations to run the US (and have been) i would like to hear your argument.
wow. that does suck. yes yes i would they did before the government stuck their nose in everything. the government has a hand in regulating everything. we dont have the "free market" that you claim to hate so much. Government is way less efficiant than a corporation. why? because they dont have to turn a profit to exist. they dont have to answer to anyone.
absolute power corrupts absolutely
... how are these two connected? no but a government forcing a company to deal with regulations with no regard to the company, the people involved or how much it costs IS fascist.
...and its very hard to turn a profit from a dead person... you have yet to prove that. you are assuming that everyone has had the exact same experience as you have. MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD IT FAR WORSE THAN YOU
...according to ABC
not to mention the death counseling that goes on there
...according to the wall street journal...
or any other of the references in this article. no, the American taxpayer is stuck with that bill....
declined by the insurance company?
did she get her health care?
they are getting screwed by the company because they cannot afford a service that is made artificially expensive by mandates from the government requiting them to cover things they wouldnt cover. such as AIDS in california.
since you cannot be denied coverage if you have aids, and it costs more for your medical treatment than id you didnt have AIDS, it costs more for everyone, if the insurance company wants to remain open. this type of thing has happened all over the country, forcing premiums to skyrocket.
then when the "cost gets out of hand" they cart the CEOs of the insurance companies in front of a camera and blame the cost on them.
.... just like all other fascist governments have done in the past...
i call BS on this.
the US is more regulated now through a combination of government agencies and taxes than it ever has before.
here is an A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies. All of these listed have some sort of regulation on your life, or the life of someone you may know.
AND
the US corporate Tax rate is one of the highest in the world. why wouldnt i go to a cheaper country to make a profit? its just plain dumb to set up shop where it costs more money to exist.
not to mention the entire HOUSING CRISIS...
when people cant sell things they cant afford to pay their employees. this leads to lay offs.
...and nobody has a "right" to a job.
you have a right to look for one, but not a right to have one.
the loss of jobs has to do with the loss of the credit market. if you cant buy big ticket items because of lack of credit, then those companies arent making money.
i always reference my claims. show me my facts are wrong without using a wiki page. i dont hate Obama. he seems like a nice guy. i just disagree with his policy.
prove that i am not being truthful. i agree. the only time that this statement is true is if the only job of the government is to protect the rights of the individual. i agree. the government has a roll and should play that roll ONLY. because people are too stupid to run their own lives? private control is what made this country great. we all had the right to live our lives as we saw fit (providing we did not infringe on the rights of others)...
then, as always happens, the government creeps in and tries to control our lives.
i have an idea. since you seem to like faceless power controlling you, how about i dictate Everything you do? what??!? you dont like that idea?!?!
how is a group of people controlling your life any different? laws that protect the rights of the individual are good. any others are bad. corporate welfare? like handing out american tax dollars to the auto industry? yeah ... they have been asleep. asleep while our government has been taking rights away slowly....
...through taxes on things that dont need to be taxed, through government programs that create a dependence on the government, through regulations of privately owned businesses, through laws that attempt to control behavior that does not violate the rights of others...
but you are right.
America is waking up.
we want our rights back.
less government is less control over corporations. i dont understand your comment at all here.
"Long ashes my friends."
could you also explain how the arguments are not logically presented?
whlioe youre at it could you explain why you refuse to live up to your very standard? ( you did not logically point out why we are wrong or logically point out how we are not being reasonable)
since you were not paying attention:
i already said Bush doesnt deserve the Peace prize. (because of his wars)
(to tack on)
neither does Hannity (because he has the same problem as Obama, he has yet to actually DO anything beyond talk to promote peace),
or Limbaugh (same as before).
quit assuming things, and quit putting words in our mouths.
while you are at it, quit looking down at me, or anyone else that disagrees with you. If you look at my well referenced posts, you will see there is logic to them.
if you feel that i am being illogical, please feel free to point it out and use facts to back it up. dont just sit there and insult me and say that i have yet to reach the age of reason. (implications that i am a child) I would never insult you in that manor.
but i will stand up for what i think is right.
and that is individual rights over everything.
and PS..
im not religious so your religious references do not apply to me as well.
either way i refuse to attack someone on a personal level in the context of a debate that is happening for the purpose of learning. If i did, i would become who i hate.
instead i chose to challenge people who make arguments to back up their claims with facts. if they do, i can counter with other facts and the stimulating debate can continue. If they do nothing then it is just a post that will soon be forgotten. If more personal attacks ensue, then that person is discredited in the realm of reasonable, rational debate.
I too disagree with Pheebs... but i like the guy. i like his passion for issues. i like that he makes me think. I can respect that.
Like the announcer of the current award said, the prize isn't always given for what the winner has done but what they want to accomplish. You can keep the same "fox" and right wing approach and keep up the rhetoric, but it just shows a lack of knowing what the prize is all about. For the record, I do think giving Obama the prize was pre-mature but as to where this country was 1 year ago, and where we are now, we've come a long way. Especially in the eyes of the world. People need to realize that outside our boarders this country hasn't been very well liked over the last 8 years and maybe even before. The attitudes of the world have began to lighten to the US and that is evident all over and a big reason why Obama won. One of the biggest accomplishments was getting Russia and China to come along and help with the Iran negotiations. Also helping with North Korea. Talks with these "unstable" countries have resumed and diplomacy is at the forefront rather than using the military. The wars are winding down and I'm sure, though we will be in Afghanistan for a while longer the strategy is shifting and about time. Bombing countries and attacking people do not really work, especially in places like the middle east and ESPECIALLY when we are going up against insurgents. Now if the entire country was the objective, like Japan in WWII then sure but occupying a country doesn't really work unless it's on complete lock-down but if the country itself wasn't the mission then it's in vein. I love the republican response to diplomacy, ATTACK! Lie about intel and use it to move the military machine. Anyone who has been in real combat has a acute understanding that it SHOULD be the last objective.
You continue to support corporate takeover of America and to limit restrictions on them. Pointing out the government is the evil, which if that was true and since there has been less government control of this country in it's history over the last few decades (more in the last 8) then why did this country end up in the current mess, not to mention the world economy? Millions of jobs have left our country, manufacturing has been a almost distant memory, we now are the largest importer of goods rather than being the exporter of them, the top 1% own more capital then 95% of us, that the real power of the every day operations of this country are hanging by a corporate thread.....
How are millions upon millions of people being laid off, left to go after scraps while big business's get their money and rob the wealth of the country? If you want to see a real interesting film go see moore's capitalism, a love story. It's a really well done film and it's really rather middle sided. There isn't a bash on either side but does give it to both. I learned a few things, maybe you will too. The said thing is that there really isn't opinions anymore, it's more of who's right. And the current state of our country shows it. I know urby has tried to point out some turths, I have, as has Laker but you and others just haven't been able to show we are wrong. Just look at what has happened, it's right in front of you.
What needs to be fixed is the $500 for a piece of gauze and $325 for a $5 bottle of Pedialyte. You should understand that hospitals charge this to make up for the loses from treating the uninsured and illegal aliens. We need to fix the health care industry itself and not give every citizen government run health care. When is the last time the government ran anything successfully?
I know what it is like to be poor and homeless. I know what it is like to not have health care insurance and be sick. I know what it is like to have children and not have insurance. You know what? Not once, NEVER, was I or anyone in my family denied health care when I sought it.
Tort reform isn't the only thing that needs to change, but it is a BIG one.
When I say government run programs do not work I am talking federal government. US Postal Service loses millions of dollars every year and they keep pumping money into it. That is just one example. Of course I understand your point about police and fire service. You are wrong though. I have worked in law enforcement and there are police services you do have to pay for and unincorporated ares that you have to pay for fire service directly. For example in certain cities if you have so many false alarms you have to start paying every time the police respond to your residence. If you do not pay they stop responding and you get fined. I think for the most part that states need to govern themselves not the federal government. That is pretty much how things were intended in the first place by our forefathers.
Seriously point out a successful federal government program that wasn't mired in corruption, high costs, and utter failure. What the current administration is suggesting is not the solution. So many other ways to look at this and fix it without mandating government controlled health care. You make good points but what will you say when someone you love is in their 60s or 70s and needs an operation and the government decides they have lived a good enough life or they are sick because of their lifestyle choices? I guarantee you they will pick and choose who gets what. Funny thing is if it is so good why have our government officials decided it isn't good enough for them!
I am not 100% disagreeing with anyone here at all. Almost everyone has made some valid points and arguments. It would be nice if our government could get past Republican and Democrat long enough to enact real change that is the best for all of us. Instead they just want to slam the other as hard as they can and with extreme measures that will cost us all. They are gready corrupt pigs that care about nothing but themselves and their power they have achieved. ALL OF THEM. We might disagree but hey man we are in this together!!
Now, can I get an Amen on some Fair Tax please?