How stupid are we if...?

Amos_Umwhat

I was listening to the news on the radio driving to work the other morning, and a couple of the stories made me think

"How stupid are we if we believe this crap?"

So, that made me think "That might make a good thread for conversation"

To get us started, one of the stories was

Farmers are fighting the government for the right to use manure to fertilize crops. Unbelievably, the FDA, in its infinite need to mandate every aspect of our lives while ensuring that certain businesses provide their stockholders with ever increasing dividends, has decided that manure, the oldest known and most commonly used fertilizer in the history of agriculture, is "unsafe for use" for growing crops. Nice clean chemicals are the way to go, our only "safe" method.

How stupid are we to
a) buy that load of crap, &
b)continue to allow this set of appointees and hiree's to pass laws when none of them are our elected representatives?

For an example of exactly how stupid this is, please watch "Idiocracy", as this is actually the central storyline of the movie.

Anyone else have anything to contribute, stupidity that would boggle the mind and be laughable, if it weren't true?

Amos_Umwhat

Another news item that got me wondering was:

The Afghan version of a council of elders is deciding whether or not the U.S. will be "allowed" to stay in Afghanistan.

What?

I thought that if you kicked somebodies ass, you got to decide what you would do and when. Don't get me wrong, I STRONGLY believe that we should bring every single American soldier out of Afghanistan as soon as possible, and that we should also let it be known that if countries want to screw with us we're going to lay them to waste, and Leave when we're good and ready. But, how stupid are we if we're letting the Afghan's decide this for us?

Amos_Umwhat

So, those are the kinds of things I had in mind for this thread, surely our elected officials should provide plenty of fodder, as well as the entertainment industry, and what passes for journalism these days. I'd love to see/hear what the rest of y'all have to say.

macs-smokes

Amos Umwhat:

I was listening to the news on the radio driving to work the other morning, and a couple of the stories made me think

"How stupid are we if we believe this crap?"

So, that made me think "That might make a good thread for conversation"

To get us started, one of the stories was

Farmers are fighting the government for the right to use manure to fertilize crops. Unbelievably, the FDA, in its infinite need to mandate every aspect of our lives while ensuring that certain businesses provide their stockholders with ever increasing dividends, has decided that manure, the oldest known and most commonly used fertilizer in the history of agriculture, is "unsafe for use" for growing crops. Nice clean chemicals are the way to go, our only "safe" method.

How stupid are we to
a) buy that load of crap, &
b)continue to allow this set of appointees and hiree's to pass laws when none of them are our elected representatives?

For an example of exactly how stupid this is, please watch "Idiocracy", as this is actually the central storyline of the movie.

Anyone else have anything to contribute, stupidity that would boggle the mind and be laughable, if it weren't true?

I think I'll just buy a load of manure... oh wait I can get that for free in more ways than one... (manure pile at the farm or turn on the "news" and watch the politicians talk.
Topic 2 um since we are the only Superpower remaining we can own Afghanistan ... but its not like new Texas ... I mean Iraq no oil so why would our politicians be interested in doing what is right?

New_Boots

*stays out of this one*

Amos_Umwhat

Here's one, gasahol.

I don't know if any of you track your mpg's etc, but I do. A few years back, noticing that the bike and car seemed to be lacking power, I did all the tune-up stuff, etc., and started watching the milage more closely.

In my case, 10% ethanol in the gas causes not only a noticable loss of power, but apparently a 20% drop in gas milage. The MC milage dropped from 45 - 47 mpg, to 38 - 40 mpg. The car used to get 18 - 20 around town, 24 - 26 hwy, now 17 mpg in town, 19 on the hwy.

More than 20% loss, for the addition of 10% ethanol, means I'm actually burning more gas to dispose of the ethanol.

I also believe the ethanol is responsible for burning a valve on one of my John Deere lawnmowers engine, causing a seized piston and catastrophic engine failure, as well as eating out the rubber parts in both lawnmower engines.

Now the EPA wants 20% ethanol.

How stupid are we if we let this nonsense make it into law?????

beatnic

I pull a travel trailer a few times a year and track the milage closely. I agree, 10% ethanol is a loss of 20% efficiency. Additionally, I use outboard engines in my business. Talk about an issue there!!!!!!! Fortunately there are a few stations along the coast that still carry non-ethanol gas, but as soon as you get inland, you're stuck using the crap.

Back to the sh$t, I mean manure. Now that they can't use it to fertilize, what are they expected to do with it. I'm thinking the pile grows larger. Will the EPA come down on these folks for storing hazardous waste? What is the correct procedure for disposing animal manure? Why don't they just make ethanol out of manure?

And finally, is it now illegal for a bear to sh$t in the woods?

How stupid are we? We would be very stupid. But it is no longer "we, the people". Our government has determined that "we the people" are very stupid. It will hurt when they find out that there are a sizable amount of us that aren't.

Amos_Umwhat

beatnic:

How stupid are we? We would be very stupid. But it is no longer "we, the people". Our government has determined that "we the people" are very stupid. It will hurt when they find out that there are a sizable amount of us that aren't.

Exactly, and that's the point of this thread

webmost

"Nobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
.............. nor votes, either

raisindot

Amos, as stupid (and politically motivated, i.e., ethanol is mandated and manure is prohibited because the giant agri-business and chem fertilizer companies own the Dept of Agriculture and quite possibly the FDA) as the things you mentioned truly are, when it comes to either trusting business or the government to keep my water from being poisoned, my air from being filled with acid rain and smog, my food from being filled with disease, my town from being converted into a gigantic chemical waste dump, the wilderness areas I like to visit from being turned into condos and strip malls, the oceans and lakes I swim in from becoming dumping grounds for chemicals and oil spills, and my voting rights from being taken away, I will trust the government every time, even if they do stupid things--which they absolutely do lots of the time.

I've worked in many businesses, large and small, over the years, and I've never found one of them that puts the interests of the consumer, the environment, or the towns in which they operate above their own personal, short-term greed and self-interests. Government certainly goes too far in many situations (I'd call the Dept. of Homeland Security and the NSA my favorite examples of dangerous bureaucratic overreaching), but the opposite--no government protection at all--is far too frightening to contemplate.

jd50ae

webmost:

"Nobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
.............. nor votes, either

Never underestimate the power of large groups of stupid people.

phobicsquirrel

raisindot:

Amos, as stupid (and politically motivated, i.e., ethanol is mandated and manure is prohibited because the giant agri-business and chem fertilizer companies own the Dept of Agriculture and quite possibly the FDA) as the things you mentioned truly are, when it comes to either trusting business or the government to keep my water from being poisoned, my air from being filled with acid rain and smog, my food from being filled with disease, my town from being converted into a gigantic chemical waste dump, the wilderness areas I like to visit from being turned into condos and strip malls, the oceans and lakes I swim in from becoming dumping grounds for chemicals and oil spills, and my voting rights from being taken away, I will trust the government every time, even if they do stupid things--which they absolutely do lots of the time.

I've worked in many businesses, large and small, over the years, and I've never found one of them that puts the interests of the consumer, the environment, or the towns in which they operate above their own personal, short-term greed and self-interests. Government certainly goes too far in many situations (I'd call the Dept. of Homeland Security and the NSA my favorite examples of dangerous bureaucratic overreaching), but the opposite--no government protection at all--is far too frightening to contemplate.

govt is evil, I mean for example they can spy on us but we go to jail if we spy on them.... but they are only as good as we allow them to be, though at this point it'll take a lot to break the security state. .....but as bad as govt is a lot of huge corporations are far worse. fracking for ng comes to mind, oil companies, banks, even our employers! again not all of them are bad but like you said we need control via a govt.

webmost

Oh ye well-intentioned idealists who love ever more and more benevolent gummint protecting us from wicked greedy business and ourselves, here is where good intentions pave the road to hell: Government has the monopoly of force at its back. Business does not. Business rents out that force from government. Each and every fracker is licensed and inspected. Agri-business has an entire department devoted to showering largesse. The military-industrial complex makes a bundle off DHS. Round and round it goes. Power corrupts. The first thing it corrupts is good intentions. Fraud, extortion chicanery, these are the inevitable handmaidens of well-intentioned government. Furthermore, business must at least hone its method to compete with other businesses. Government does not. Government can be endlessly inept and yet survive.

This is a problem without a solution.

perkinke

Just to throw a bit of a wrench in the works, overusing manure can be as bad as overusing chemical fertilizer depending in the soil type. Here I the valley we have an ongoing problem with fecal ecoli in the ground water from manure fertilizer and an extremely high water table. Fortunately the university and the farmers have been working on this for years to find a balance. It's still a concern, but not a problem. When I was in undergrad I worked for the microbiology dept that did the water testing for the area. I was also fortunate to work for a few days with a program in Vietnam last year trying to increase the use of organic compost instead of manure due to the extreme level of bacteria in the water supply.

so, while a blanket ban does not make sense, in specific instances it needs to be curtailed. A friend began her doctoral program studying the places where science and politics disconnect, like this. Unfortunately her advisors did what many academics do and completely flaked out on her. Would have been a great study.

90+_Irishman

Not that I follow the news or any of these issues at all myself but after reading all y'all's posts one little nugget springs to mind. ALL things in moderation. Too much or too little of anything seems to be the rub and where the issues lay. So balance between yourself and what's around you seems to be the answer. Sadly balance is the one thing that few can ever seem to get right and few still when it comes to governments or politicians/lawyers.

RBeckom

Crap on the naysayers, I have two horses in my front yard and the manure goes under my fruit trees and in my garden.
What are they going to do?
Sample everyone's soil and hand out tickets?
The government has turned it's-self into nothing more than hogwash in my opinion!
Chemicals indeed!!!!!

dr_frankenstein56

Amos Umwhat:

Here's one, gasahol.

I don't know if any of you track your mpg's etc, but I do. A few years back, noticing that the bike and car seemed to be lacking power, I did all the tune-up stuff, etc., and started watching the milage more closely.

In my case, 10% ethanol in the gas causes not only a noticable loss of power, but apparently a 20% drop in gas milage. The MC milage dropped from 45 - 47 mpg, to 38 - 40 mpg. The car used to get 18 - 20 around town, 24 - 26 hwy, now 17 mpg in town, 19 on the hwy.

More than 20% loss, for the addition of 10% ethanol, means I'm actually burning more gas to dispose of the ethanol.

I also believe the ethanol is responsible for burning a valve on one of my John Deere lawnmowers engine, causing a seized piston and catastrophic engine failure, as well as eating out the rubber parts in both lawnmower engines.

Now the EPA wants 20% ethanol.

How stupid are we if we let this nonsense make it into law?????

**OPINON**

I personally enjoy the added additions of ethanol in the fuel. Yes it has some draw backs with fuel contamination, I.E. what probably caused your mowers problem was deposits collected from the fuel resting in a once 100% gasoline tank then the actual fuel. From my perspective.... which is entirely performance based.... the Ethanol is the best thing since sliced bread. I myself like to use E85 when its available in quality batches. The performance aspect of having the alky in the tank is just wonderful, High boost numbers, rediculous compression, huge horsepower on the street, and cheap cost.
My Daily driver uses 93 pump, and with that boost is limited to right around 17lbs. Now with E20 or Gasohol, I can increase that boost number to 20lbs. Thats like instantly adding 50hp. Octane is great... and Ethanol has lots! Now if you could control the ever tighter emissions laws which choke down a cars true potential you might see some changes ih how you perceve the fuel and its uses.

Aj

Amos_Umwhat

90+ Irishman:

Not that I follow the news or any of these issues at all myself but after reading all y'all's posts one little nugget springs to mind. ALL things in moderation. Too much or too little of anything seems to be the rub and where the issues lay. So balance between yourself and what's around you seems to be the answer. Sadly balance is the one thing that few can ever seem to get right and few still when it comes to governments or politicians/lawyers.

I like this. You're exactly right, we suffer from extremism in all its forms.

Amos_Umwhat

dr_frankenstein56:

Amos Umwhat:

Here's one, gasahol.

I don't know if any of you track your mpg's etc, but I do. A few years back, noticing that the bike and car seemed to be lacking power, I did all the tune-up stuff, etc., and started watching the milage more closely.

In my case, 10% ethanol in the gas causes not only a noticable loss of power, but apparently a 20% drop in gas milage. The MC milage dropped from 45 - 47 mpg, to 38 - 40 mpg. The car used to get 18 - 20 around town, 24 - 26 hwy, now 17 mpg in town, 19 on the hwy.

More than 20% loss, for the addition of 10% ethanol, means I'm actually burning more gas to dispose of the ethanol.

I also believe the ethanol is responsible for burning a valve on one of my John Deere lawnmowers engine, causing a seized piston and catastrophic engine failure, as well as eating out the rubber parts in both lawnmower engines.

Now the EPA wants 20% ethanol.

How stupid are we if we let this nonsense make it into law?????

**OPINON**

I personally enjoy the added additions of ethanol in the fuel. Yes it has some draw backs with fuel contamination, I.E. what probably caused your mowers problem was deposits collected from the fuel resting in a once 100% gasoline tank then the actual fuel. From my perspective.... which is entirely performance based.... the Ethanol is the best thing since sliced bread. I myself like to use E85 when its available in quality batches. The performance aspect of having the alky in the tank is just wonderful, High boost numbers, rediculous compression, huge horsepower on the street, and cheap cost.
My Daily driver uses 93 pump, and with that boost is limited to right around 17lbs. Now with E20 or Gasohol, I can increase that boost number to 20lbs. Thats like instantly adding 50hp. Octane is great... and Ethanol has lots! Now if you could control the ever tighter emissions laws which choke down a cars true potential you might see some changes ih how you perceve the fuel and its uses.

Aj

So, to reap the benefits I need to install turbo-chargers on all my vehicles?

dr_frankenstein56

Amos Umwhat:

dr_frankenstein56:

Amos Umwhat:

Here's one, gasahol.

I don't know if any of you track your mpg's etc, but I do. A few years back, noticing that the bike and car seemed to be lacking power, I did all the tune-up stuff, etc., and started watching the milage more closely.

In my case, 10% ethanol in the gas causes not only a noticable loss of power, but apparently a 20% drop in gas milage. The MC milage dropped from 45 - 47 mpg, to 38 - 40 mpg. The car used to get 18 - 20 around town, 24 - 26 hwy, now 17 mpg in town, 19 on the hwy.

More than 20% loss, for the addition of 10% ethanol, means I'm actually burning more gas to dispose of the ethanol.

I also believe the ethanol is responsible for burning a valve on one of my John Deere lawnmowers engine, causing a seized piston and catastrophic engine failure, as well as eating out the rubber parts in both lawnmower engines.

Now the EPA wants 20% ethanol.

How stupid are we if we let this nonsense make it into law?????

**OPINON**

I personally enjoy the added additions of ethanol in the fuel. Yes it has some draw backs with fuel contamination, I.E. what probably caused your mowers problem was deposits collected from the fuel resting in a once 100% gasoline tank then the actual fuel. From my perspective.... which is entirely performance based.... the Ethanol is the best thing since sliced bread. I myself like to use E85 when its available in quality batches. The performance aspect of having the alky in the tank is just wonderful, High boost numbers, rediculous compression, huge horsepower on the street, and cheap cost.
My Daily driver uses 93 pump, and with that boost is limited to right around 17lbs. Now with E20 or Gasohol, I can increase that boost number to 20lbs. Thats like instantly adding 50hp. Octane is great... and Ethanol has lots! Now if you could control the ever tighter emissions laws which choke down a cars true potential you might see some changes ih how you perceve the fuel and its uses.

Aj

So, to reap the benefits I need to install turbo-chargers on all my vehicles?

not completly.... but the octane benifits of the ethanol make it very possible to do some rediculous stuff on the street if you so desire that sort of thing. But to your advantage, a properly designed forced induction (turbo or supercharger) system would offer the abilities of better fuel economy or more power or in general, smaller engines with a smaller carbon footprint that can replace the thirsty big blocks of yore.
So to provide an answer of some benifit.... The ethanol is probably making a good run at improving what you already have in your current vehicle, the dilemma being that your car is caught between trends and so controlled by the govt with SMOG laws that we cannot see the true benifit of the fuel in our current applications. The problems effecting your vehicles and other engine power plants are a clue to this issue, without the car being able to now compensate for this high octane but much colder burning fuel it suffers in performance... being laggy and getting reduced milage. All around annoying the crap out of the everyday driver. But with a re-tune and some proper fuel injection managment you would probably be greatly impressed with Gasohol and the performance/economy gains to be noted.
Automakers are barely catching on with this wave and thus you see new ford models like the Eco-Boost being introduced into the market which take full advantage of how the fuels are changing as time progresses on.

Aj

beatnic

dr_frankenstein56:

Amos Umwhat:

dr_frankenstein56:

Amos Umwhat:

Here's one, gasahol.

I don't know if any of you track your mpg's etc, but I do. A few years back, noticing that the bike and car seemed to be lacking power, I did all the tune-up stuff, etc., and started watching the milage more closely.

In my case, 10% ethanol in the gas causes not only a noticable loss of power, but apparently a 20% drop in gas milage. The MC milage dropped from 45 - 47 mpg, to 38 - 40 mpg. The car used to get 18 - 20 around town, 24 - 26 hwy, now 17 mpg in town, 19 on the hwy.

More than 20% loss, for the addition of 10% ethanol, means I'm actually burning more gas to dispose of the ethanol.

I also believe the ethanol is responsible for burning a valve on one of my John Deere lawnmowers engine, causing a seized piston and catastrophic engine failure, as well as eating out the rubber parts in both lawnmower engines.

Now the EPA wants 20% ethanol.

How stupid are we if we let this nonsense make it into law?????

**OPINON**

I personally enjoy the added additions of ethanol in the fuel. Yes it has some draw backs with fuel contamination, I.E. what probably caused your mowers problem was deposits collected from the fuel resting in a once 100% gasoline tank then the actual fuel. From my perspective.... which is entirely performance based.... the Ethanol is the best thing since sliced bread. I myself like to use E85 when its available in quality batches. The performance aspect of having the alky in the tank is just wonderful, High boost numbers, rediculous compression, huge horsepower on the street, and cheap cost.
My Daily driver uses 93 pump, and with that boost is limited to right around 17lbs. Now with E20 or Gasohol, I can increase that boost number to 20lbs. Thats like instantly adding 50hp. Octane is great... and Ethanol has lots! Now if you could control the ever tighter emissions laws which choke down a cars true potential you might see some changes ih how you perceve the fuel and its uses.

Aj

So, to reap the benefits I need to install turbo-chargers on all my vehicles?

not completly.... but the octane benifits of the ethanol make it very possible to do some rediculous stuff on the street if you so desire that sort of thing. But to your advantage, a properly designed forced induction (turbo or supercharger) system would offer the abilities of better fuel economy or more power or in general, smaller engines with a smaller carbon footprint that can replace the thirsty big blocks of yore.
So to provide an answer of some benifit.... The ethanol is probably making a good run at improving what you already have in your current vehicle, the dilemma being that your car is caught between trends and so controlled by the govt with SMOG laws that we cannot see the true benifit of the fuel in our current applications. The problems effecting your vehicles and other engine power plants are a clue to this issue, without the car being able to now compensate for this high octane but much colder burning fuel it suffers in performance... being laggy and getting reduced milage. All around annoying the crap out of the everyday driver. But with a re-tune and some proper fuel injection managment you would probably be greatly impressed with Gasohol and the performance/economy gains to be noted.
Automakers are barely catching on with this wave and thus you see new ford models like the Eco-Boost being introduced into the market which take full advantage of how the fuels are changing as time progresses on.

Aj

Amos, you're missing the point. If you spend enough money on fuel injectors and eco boosts and filtration systems you're improving the world. Clear your head of those thoughts that gasoline actually combusts better than ethanol. Those things don't matter anymore. Go buy a $50,000 hybrid and get the upgrades and you won't feel a difference. And you'll be saving the world.

I remember the days of running a GTO on 93 octane, leaded gasoline. Aj, you can only dream about what car horse power can be.

0patience

beatnic:

I remember the days of running a GTO on 93 octane, leaded gasoline. Aj, you can only dream about what car horse power can be.

Ah, the memories that brings.

Here are the problems with performance of ethanol fuels.
Specific energy - MJ/kg (Mega Joule per kilogram) and energy density - MJ/L (Mega Joule per Liter) of Regular gasoline is 1.5 times straight ethanol.
Gasohol (90% gasoline 10% ethanol) is 5% lower than straight gasoline.
E-85 is over 15% lower.
The numbers are pretty straight forward on it. You cannot have a power gain with a lower specific energy and lower energy density.

Modifying the engine to perform better on ethanol fuel isn't the same as saying an engine will run better on ethanol/gasohol/E-85.
One huge problem with ethanol/gasohol/E-85 is moisture content. Anhydrous alcohol is said to contain no water, which several countries are requiring. The US is not one of those countries and can use hydrous ethanol (depending on the manufacturer/refinery), which can contain as much as 5% water.
Moisture is a killer in small engines, such as mowers and the like.

So while there are benefits with E-85, there are also downfalls.
Take this info for what it's worth. Not a plug nickle.
Anyone can argue these points.
I won't even get started on bio-diesel. LOL!

Amos_Umwhat

beatnic:

Amos, you're missing the point. If you spend enough money on fuel injectors and eco boosts and filtration systems you're improving the world. Clear your head of those thoughts that gasoline actually combusts better than ethanol. Those things don't matter anymore. Go buy a $50,000 hybrid and get the upgrades and you won't feel a difference. And you'll be saving the world.

I remember the days of running a GTO on 93 octane, leaded gasoline. Aj, you can only dream about what car horse power can be.

Yeah, that's about the math I figured, too. At my age, I can't afford to lose a years wages like that, just to find that once I do they'll change it again.

Thanks to Opatience for the math, too. I read an article in Motorcycle Consumer News not long ago explaining why "it works in Brazil" isn't a cogent arguement for what we're doing here, also, how to remove the ethanol from the gas using gravity and water. The downside of that is, as Dr. F pointed out, the ethanol is one way of increasing octane, so if you remove it, you still need an octane boost if you're running an old-fashioned long stroke engine, like my carbeureted Harley.

Amos_Umwhat

raisindot:

Amos, as stupid (and politically motivated, i.e., ethanol is mandated and manure is prohibited because the giant agri-business and chem fertilizer companies own the Dept of Agriculture and quite possibly the FDA) as the things you mentioned truly are, when it comes to either trusting business or the government to keep my water from being poisoned, my air from being filled with acid rain and smog, my food from being filled with disease, my town from being converted into a gigantic chemical waste dump, the wilderness areas I like to visit from being turned into condos and strip malls, the oceans and lakes I swim in from becoming dumping grounds for chemicals and oil spills, and my voting rights from being taken away, I will trust the government every time, even if they do stupid things--which they absolutely do lots of the time.

I've worked in many businesses, large and small, over the years, and I've never found one of them that puts the interests of the consumer, the environment, or the towns in which they operate above their own personal, short-term greed and self-interests. Government certainly goes too far in many situations (I'd call the Dept. of Homeland Security and the NSA my favorite examples of dangerous bureaucratic overreaching), but the opposite--no government protection at all--is far too frightening to contemplate.

We can absolutely agree that the primary function of government should be oversight, and that, at least for awhile, the efforts of such bureacracies as the EPA and FDA were valid, and much needed. You are also 100% correct that we cannot allow "business" to set their own rules, or expect them to treat the public fairly. Surely some have, but the record stands against that notion.

Bureacracies, however, like business, are entities that crave growth and power. The question becomes: Who will guard the guardians? Who will watch the watchers?

Unchecked power grows until it is out of proportion with its original intent, as we're seeing in the above examples. It ceases to be about protection of a fair system, and becomes an ever increasing quest for domination. What I dislike most about these agencies, is that they, unconstitutionally in my opinion, get to write new laws in committee, that go into effect by fiat. At most, they should only be able to draft suggestions to send to Congress, where it should be required that they are read and understood by the Congressmen prior to a vote.

Which brings us to our next subject......

Amos_Umwhat

I saw a news story the other day about a city in California (where else?) that has passed a law that you may not smoke in your own home!!!

Really? In America? Once known as the land of the free / home of the brave?

How stupid are we as a nation if no one stands up for the rights of the individuals? How stupid are the voters in California if they keep electing these tyrants to local government positions?

pretty stupid.

As Einstein said
The difference between genius and stupidity is, genius has limits.

macs-smokes

I had the opportunity to hear and question one of those Stanford think tank fellows. He actually was on a fellowship but I digress. I point blank asked him since the government is subsidizing corn based ethanol and similarly raising prices on food fuel etc. Why is there not a ethanol plant along the gulf coast the utilize the sugar cane byproduct?
He was taken by surprise that someone might know of a different viable ethanol source that would not drive our economy downward. When you consider that it costs (insert correct percentage here) more fuel and clean water to produce 1 gallon of ethanol than 1 gallon of fuel (take your pick here fellows).
Some dumb redneck had a Stanford think tanker sputtering like an engine running bad fuel in 3 questions.

beatnic

0patience:

beatnic:

I remember the days of running a GTO on 93 octane, leaded gasoline. Aj, you can only dream about what car horse power can be.

Ah, the memories that brings.

Here are the problems with performance of ethanol fuels.
Specific energy - MJ/kg (Mega Joule per kilogram) and energy density - MJ/L (Mega Joule per Liter) of Regular gasoline is 1.5 times straight ethanol.
Gasohol (90% gasoline 10% ethanol) is 5% lower than straight gasoline.
E-85 is over 15% lower.
The numbers are pretty straight forward on it. You cannot have a power gain with a lower specific energy and lower energy density.

Modifying the engine to perform better on ethanol fuel isn't the same as saying an engine will run better on ethanol/gasohol/E-85.
One huge problem with ethanol/gasohol/E-85 is moisture content. Anhydrous alcohol is said to contain no water, which several countries are requiring. The US is not one of those countries and can use hydrous ethanol (depending on the manufacturer/refinery), which can contain as much as 5% water.
Moisture is a killer in small engines, such as mowers and the like.

So while there are benefits with E-85, there are also downfalls.
Take this info for what it's worth. Not a plug nickle.
Anyone can argue these points.
I won't even get started on bio-diesel. LOL!

And its the moisture content that has had me up in arms. I use survey boats in my small business. They have aluminum tanks embeded in the hull. When E85 is put into the tank, and the tank rests for a short period, condensation begins to occur in the tank. The water build-up in the tank is first noted when the fuel injectors decides to rust and then fail. I've spent several thousands of dollars repairing my boats and engines because of this stupid decision.

Government : Just do it and we'll find out how it effects people latter. Can anyone say ACA. They passed it, and now they are having it read back to them.

dr_frankenstein56

Absolutly wonderful Conversation Guys. Just wanted to say that. 100% agree with everybody.

Aj

beatnic

dr_frankenstein56:

Absolutly wonderful Conversation Guys. Just wanted to say that. 100% agree with everybody.

Aj

That is highly unlikely. LMAO.

90+_Irishman

dr_frankenstein56:

Absolutly wonderful Conversation Guys. Just wanted to say that. 100% agree with everybody.

Aj

I endorse this political post :P lol jk

dr_frankenstein56

90+ Irishman:

dr_frankenstein56:

Absolutly wonderful Conversation Guys. Just wanted to say that. 100% agree with everybody.

Aj

I endorse this political post :P lol jk

ha! we have the official Irish Stamp of approval! we can now slander and belittle eachother at will!

payed for by the committee to Bomb friends.