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  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2021

    @Amos_Umwhat said:
    You want to stay until there's peace in Afghanistan? As far as I know, and I could be wrong (that's for Frank), but I think the last time Afghanistan had "peace" was when Genghis Khan was in charge.

    This is why I responded in the first place. It was a parenthetical comment at the end of the second sentence in the fourth paragraph of your post. I was mentioned by name, not tagged by user ID, so I guess we can throw out the theory that I don't read your stuff.

    Is that why you were put on the defensive with my post? Is it because you were trying to conjure and an argument with me with the "I could be wrong that's for Frank" little quip?

    Read my message, not my words. You'll do better that way.

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  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2021

    I was not trying to conjure an argument with you. I seem to have misread the message in your words. For that I apologize, again. I perceived an argumentative tone. Perhaps it was not there. That's one of the problems with this medium, which was what I was getting at previously.

    It's easy to "hear" a tone, which may or may not be there. It was my perception that in many instances you seem to hear a tone which I do not mean to convey. It feels often to me that you hear anger, where I mean humor, tongue in cheek kind of stuff, like the "that's for Frank" comment, which I saw as friendly banter. You seem to have responded as if I were calling you out with some sort of belligerent intent. Nothing could be farther from the truth. As I said before, this may be only my perception. It's a kind of 2 dimensional medium.

    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Word. Same-same.

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  • ShawnOLShawnOL Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ForMud said:
    Looks like China might be the next in a long line of countries to give it a try......
    https://thehill.com/opinion/international/552587-america-departs-afghanistan-as-china-arrives

    That ought to be interesting. Freedom didn't work, maybe a totalitarian regime will work.

  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShawnOL said:

    @ForMud said:
    Looks like China might be the next in a long line of countries to give it a try......
    https://thehill.com/opinion/international/552587-america-departs-afghanistan-as-china-arrives

    That ought to be interesting. Freedom didn't work, maybe a totalitarian regime will work.

    It will make more sense to the Taliban. Like-minded conquerors. They will understand the ground rules. Too bad for those wishing to see modern thinking in their own lifetimes, though.

    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • ForMudForMud Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rdp77 said:
    I don’t think it will work even for China. The type of control is different. One is through force and the other through religion.

    Money/trade > religion/force

  • CtheHamCtheHam Posts: 205 ✭✭✭✭

    @genareddog said:

    @webmost said:

    I have never met the average Afghan, nor do I pretend to know what the average Afghan thinks, so, rather than make some wild and unsubstantiated speculation, I must defer to your expertise on this...

    I'm still stuck on figuring out why what the average Afghan wants should matter to me.

    I think I can answer that for @CtheHam , because the average Afghan is still a human being.

    @genareddog is correct. If you just watch some of the videos coming out of that area right now, it is just such an embarrassment what this administration is doing. There are videos of people wanting out so badly, they are trying to hang onto an airplane as it takes off. Of course that is not possible and you can see them falling to their deaths. How Biden can even justify this is beyond me. Now Biden is even admitting that they knew the Taliban would take over, but it just happened quicker than they thought. Also, they plan on recognizing the Taliban as a legitimate government as long as they "upholds rights, doesn't harbor terrorists, and protects the rights of women and girls." Sounds good to me, I mean they have always been an upright and trustworthy bunch of good guys. :s

  • silvermousesilvermouse Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    silence from the head honchos in the military. It would be good to know how they advised Biden. I suspect they suggested exactly what Biden is doing but we may never know.

  • genareddoggenareddog Posts: 4,002 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silvermouse said:
    silence from the head honchos in the military. It would be good to know how they advised Biden. I suspect they suggested exactly what Biden is doing but we may never know.

    Edward I hope and pray you are wrong for all of us.

  • silvermousesilvermouse Posts: 18,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    me too

  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The whole thing is tragic, first to last.
    For us, a lot of sacrifice meant to help others to achieve better life. For the ones who want a better life, the loss of that dream, for now.

    What does one do? If we haven't accomplished it in 20 years, will we in 30? 50? How much does the religion play into it? Are the Afghan army in fear of the Holy Warrior, perhaps feeling an obligation not to fight too hard against these, in case there really is a judgement and these guys had it right?

    And lastly, our fault for not treating it like a war. I wasn't there, but I've know a few who were. My impression is that somewhere along the way the U.S. started really frowning on soldiers who engaged the enemy. Legal experts, etc., involved. We needed more George S. Patton, and less J. Edgar Hoover.

    I hate that so many died and suffered loss, to just let it go fade into other peoples history. I would hate for the dying and suffering to continue unabated as well.

    I hope for as peaceful a transition as possible, and that perhaps we've planted a seed of an ideal that the people of that country might internalize and realize in future generations.

    I'll shut up now. ;)

    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2021

    So I will preface this by saying that I agree with @Amos_Umwhat, so there's no misunderstanding. Spot on with the comment on 20 30 50 years. If we haven't accomplished anything on 20 years, why would we in 21 or 24 or 204?

    For my part, I don't understand the mentality of a person who will hang on to an airplane literally for dear life and to their certain immediate death, but won't pick up a weapon and fight to control their own destiny. Likewise, I don't understand how you can have 100,000 perfectly healthy 20 to 40 year old Syrian male refugees.

    Using the American paradigm, a bunch of ragtag farmer rebels with hunting muskets were whipped into shape by a couple of ex English soldiers and a French guy named Lafayette. They ultimately beat the most professional army and navy in the world and earned their freedom. We've given Afghanistan a generation of Lafayettes, but they still hang off of airplanes.

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  • webmostwebmost Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)


  • peter4jcpeter4jc Posts: 15,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the first post in this old thread shoulda/coulda been...

    ...think everyone should see things the way I see things.
    ...think everyone will agree with my perspective on every topic.
    ...think everyone will hear and understand me.

    But I'm glad it's a topic we're discussing. This morning I was wonder why so much news is being devoted to Afghanistan and zip/zero/nada to Nigeria and the hundreds being executed and raped there. I get that we don't have the casualties/injuries in Nigeria that we've had in Afghanistan, but people are enraged and concerned about the civilians being left behind for the Taliban to abuse. Why isn't the same concern being given over Nigeria? Because it'll affect us less here, i.e. less terrorism making it's way here from Nigeria? I dunno.

    "I could've had a Mi Querida!"   Nick Bardis
  • deadmandeadman Posts: 8,797 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @peter4jc said:
    I think the first post in this old thread shoulda/coulda been...

    ...think everyone should see things the way I see things.
    ...think everyone will agree with my perspective on every topic.
    ...think everyone will hear and understand me.

    But I'm glad it's a topic we're discussing. This morning I was wonder why so much news is being devoted to Afghanistan and zip/zero/nada to Nigeria and the hundreds being executed and raped there. I get that we don't have the casualties/injuries in Nigeria that we've had in Afghanistan, but people are enraged and concerned about the civilians being left behind for the Taliban to abuse. Why isn't the same concern being given over Nigeria? Because it'll affect us less here, i.e. less terrorism making it's way here from Nigeria? I dunno.

    I just read over the weekend that some troops and special forces coming out of Afghanistan are not coming home but being reassigned to Nigeria/Africa

    Test

  • ShawnOLShawnOL Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShawnOL said:
    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

    This ^^

    I would love to help those people help themselves. It's a very rare circumstance when fighting their wars for them is in any way productive. Food, not guns. Clothing, not tanks. Technology to improve their ability to feed themselves, not weaponized aircraft. Conflict resolution strategies, not engaging in the conflict. Sharing our moral standards, while accepting that social kinesis may well mean that some generations may pass before they can fully integrate them.

    Oh, and here at home we could learn from that last one, and quit insisting that everyone gets their own personal pronoun. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, eats what ducks eat, let's just keep calling it a duck and leave our secks lives out of it. But that's another story.

    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • peter4jcpeter4jc Posts: 15,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^^^ what she said.

    "I could've had a Mi Querida!"   Nick Bardis
  • peter4jcpeter4jc Posts: 15,174 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ShawnOL said:
    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

    I believe most people would agree. But how much of their agreement is based on things not turning out how they were supposed to? If Afghanistan had turned around, popular opinion would be that we were right in going there.

    Question for you; Would you offer the same sentiment/advice in 1940, and how was our involvement in WWII different?

    "I could've had a Mi Querida!"   Nick Bardis
  • RhamlinRhamlin Posts: 8,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How stupid are we to be raising kids on Macdonald’s and Wendy’s?

  • Amos_UmwhatAmos_Umwhat Posts: 8,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @peter4jc said:

    @ShawnOL said:
    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

    I believe most people would agree. But how much of their agreement is based on things not turning out how they were supposed to? If Afghanistan had turned around, popular opinion would be that we were right in going there.

    Question for you; Would you offer the same sentiment/advice in 1940, and how was our involvement in WWII different?

    Good question, and it's exactly the "rare circumstance" I referred to above.

    However, perhaps in this situation a more pertinent question might be:

    "How is Vietnam doing after France and the United States stopped fighting in their internal conflict?"

    More of an apples to apples comparison, I think.

    WARNING:  The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme.  Proceed at your own risk.  

    "If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed.  If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." --  Mark Twain
  • JrflicksterJrflickster Posts: 3,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @peter4jc said:
    ^^^ what she said.

    Haha

  • CalvinAndHoboCalvinAndHobo Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just my 2 cents on this, but I don't think it's possible to establish a democracy where every citizen isn't equal. If for example, you don't want women to be able to read, or leave the house by themselves, then you can't have real democracy, because you need some kind of dictatorship to keep them in their place, so that they can't voice their displeasure the way a democracy allows. It's a non starter in my opinion.

  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @peter4jc said:

    @ShawnOL said:
    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

    I believe most people would agree. But how much of their agreement is based on things not turning out how they were supposed to? If Afghanistan had turned around, popular opinion would be that we were right in going there.

    Question for you; Would you offer the same sentiment/advice in 1940, and how was our involvement in WWII different?

    This ^^

    Don't look ↑
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CalvinAndHobo said:
    Just my 2 cents on this, but I don't think it's possible to establish a democracy where every citizen isn't equal. If for example, you don't want women to be able to read, or leave the house by themselves, then you can't have real democracy, because you need some kind of dictatorship to keep them in their place, so that they can't voice their displeasure the way a democracy allows. It's a non starter in my opinion.

    That's funny because that's exactly what we did. All white men were equal in 1776. Women couldn't own land or vote. Blacks were slaves. Hispanics were created with the systematic breeding and or raping of native women. We killed and drove indians westward...manifest destiny and all that.

    Don't look ↑
  • CalvinAndHoboCalvinAndHobo Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:

    @CalvinAndHobo said:
    Just my 2 cents on this, but I don't think it's possible to establish a democracy where every citizen isn't equal. If for example, you don't want women to be able to read, or leave the house by themselves, then you can't have real democracy, because you need some kind of dictatorship to keep them in their place, so that they can't voice their displeasure the way a democracy allows. It's a non starter in my opinion.

    That's funny because that's exactly what we did. All white men were equal in 1776. Women couldn't own land or vote. Blacks were slaves. Hispanics were created with the systematic breeding and or raping of native women. We killed and drove indians westward...manifest destiny and all that.

    That's why we had a civil war... I don't think that would work today. I could be wrong though.

  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 16,453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CalvinAndHobo said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @CalvinAndHobo said:
    Just my 2 cents on this, but I don't think it's possible to establish a democracy where every citizen isn't equal. If for example, you don't want women to be able to read, or leave the house by themselves, then you can't have real democracy, because you need some kind of dictatorship to keep them in their place, so that they can't voice their displeasure the way a democracy allows. It's a non starter in my opinion.

    That's funny because that's exactly what we did. All white men were equal in 1776. Women couldn't own land or vote. Blacks were slaves. Hispanics were created with the systematic breeding and or raping of native women. We killed and drove indians westward...manifest destiny and all that.

    That's why we had a civil war... I don't think that would work today. I could be wrong though.

    Ok, now I see what you're saying

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  • ShawnOLShawnOL Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @peter4jc said:

    @ShawnOL said:
    When will they learn that our soldiers are not policemen. It's not our job to police the third world and fix all their problems. Bring our troops home and keep em here.

    I believe most people would agree. But how much of their agreement is based on things not turning out how they were supposed to? If Afghanistan had turned around, popular opinion would be that we were right in going there.

    Question for you; Would you offer the same sentiment/advice in 1940, and how was our involvement in WWII different?

    We were helping our allies, Afghanistan is not our ally.

  • First_WarriorFirst_Warrior Posts: 3,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the primary reason we were in Afghanistan was to prevent Islamic fundamentalists from getting their hands on nuclear weapons.

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