Amos, I'm Jewish and I' embarrassed that Jewish people would protest any kind of religious icons in a cemetery. Heck, as an agnostic, I'm embarrassed that athiests would protest as well. What is more ecumenical that in a cemetery that allows people of all faiths to express their faiths together? Stupid stupid stupid.
Now, as to sining Silent Night in public schools I am queasy about that. It is a religious song, not a secular song, and I remember back in school at our "nonvolunterary" class assemblies being forced to be on a stage signing holiday carols, and Silent Night was one of them. I hated singing anyway, so I mouthed the words, but I didn't fell comfortable having to sing something that imposed a religious viewpoint I didn't subscribe to (I wouldn't have wanted them to sing Chanukah songs, either).
Amos, I'm Jewish and I' embarrassed that Jewish people would protest any kind of religious icons in a cemetery. Heck, as an agnostic, I'm embarrassed that athiests would protest as well. What is more ecumenical that in a cemetery that allows people of all faiths to express their faiths together? Stupid stupid stupid.
Now, as to sining Silent Night in public schools I am queasy about that. It is a religious song, not a secular song, and I remember back in school at our "nonvolunterary" class assemblies being forced to be on a stage signing holiday carols, and Silent Night was one of them. I hated singing anyway, so I mouthed the words, but I didn't fell comfortable having to sing something that imposed a religious viewpoint I didn't subscribe to (I wouldn't have wanted them to sing Chanukah songs, either).
I'm certain that the "Jewish" group in question does not represent Jews in general. Very certain. Much the same way that, despite their literature, the KKK does not represent Christianity. We all have our nut-jobs. Our family is way pro-Jewish. My Dad used to send money to "Friends of Israel", (I think that was the group), I sent enough for a plane ticket to a group run by Rabbi Eckstein, and received a post card a few months later from a Russian emigrant thanking me. I say all of this because I really don't want anyone to think that my comments on that group were meant to be any kind of generalization. It amazed me that any group calling itself Jewish would behave so. My Dad used to point out that there was no more open-minded group on earth than Hebrews, tolerant of all religions in their capital city, despite the centuries of intolerance and abuse on the part of those religions. Chosen indeed!
I consider myself Christian, but, I have to admit, that there are not many denominations that will include me if my beliefs are entirely known. I've studied a lot of Gnosticism, and if you throw in what I learned from Tom Harpur's "The Pagan Christ", Geza Vermes "The Changing Face of Christ", and some works by Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels, you get close to what I really believe.
At one time I considered myself atheist, until some undeniable and overwhelming personal experiences taught me different. This "atheist" claim, too, is hogwash on the part of the petitioners in the suit to bring down the crucifix. If these people were truly atheist, it wouldn't bother them at all. They would consider it an archaic symbol of a bygone culture and treat it as a relic. No, they're not atheists, they are AntiChrist, or anti-God.
Back to the Silent Night issue. I spent Kindergarten through 4th grades in school in Brooklyn NY. Lots of Jewish kids. Actually, our church and the local synagogue used to have interfaith activities for us kids. Our pastor, Methodist in case anyone wonders, felt that it was important for us to understand the history, and before the events would stress to us that Jesus stated very clearly that He did not come to change one iota of the law, Jesus remained a Jew. At any rate, at that time, in our school, the Jewish kids got Holidays we didn't, and were excused from religiously oriented programs not directed toward Judaism, and there were no repercussions that I'm aware of. That's the way to handle it, I think.
Thanks for giving me a chance to express these things, I believe they need to be part of the discussion. At a National level, too.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Amos, as someone remarked here recently, "get with the times". See, here's how it works:
this is good for us:
this is bad for us:
this baffles us:
What can those mad ragheads possibly have against us?
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
It amazed me that any group calling itself Jewish would behave so. My Dad used to point out that there was no more open-minded group on earth than Hebrews, tolerant of all religions in their capital city, despite the centuries of intolerance and abuse on the part of those religions. Chosen indeed!
Oh, believe me, there are plenty of intolerant and bigoted Jews. The vitriolic views of some groups that essentially view Israeli Arabs (those who live in Israel proper) and especially Palestinians as second-class citizens or much, much worse are particularly reprehensible. The ones calling for crosses to be taken out of cemeteries are, quite probably, of the extreme leftist groups; the same ones who support the boycott and divestiture movement against Israel and are every bit as reprehensible as the extreme right wing Jews who very publicly demonize Arabs and Muslims and equate any criticism of Israel's West Bank policies as anti-semitism (a whole set of issues that I totally wish to avoid any discussion of).
Really, I think the only stereotype that accurately applies to most Jews can be found in comedian Jackie Mason's classic joke: "Here's the main difference between Jews and Gentiles. A gentile goes to Vienna, and when he comes back he tells his friends, "I was so exciting to visit the homes of Mozart and Beethoven, see all of its beautiful architecture and culture." When a Jew goes to Vienna, he says, "When I was in Vienna, I had such a piece of cake!"
The sad part to all these postings is the singular fact that throughout all the regulations the government has passed, as well as tried to pass, not at one time has it considered the acid rain it has continually allowed to fall on our heads not to mention our soil. I think harshly of all the past presidents who have not had enough intelligence to place a large canopy over this country, catch the rain, filter it and then introduce it to our environment. Just my two cents.
Just saw an article that says the Colorado River is drying up. Also, most of the resevoirs west of the Mississippi are at about 18% of the capacity they held in the 1970's. And we're fracking, pumping our most precious resource, the source of all life itself, into the ground to produce oil/gasoline energy, instead of developing the viable alternatives.
How stupid are we?
God knows.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Just saw an article that says the Colorado River is drying up.
Did you know that over the last 50+ years, intensive water consumption and population expansion has caused the lower 100 miles of the river to dry up so much that the Colorado River no longer reaches the sea except in years of heavy runoff.
Just saw an article that says the Colorado River is drying up.
Did you know that over the last 50+ years, intensive water consumption and population expansion has caused the lower 100 miles of the river to dry up so much that the Colorado River no longer reaches the sea except in years of heavy runoff.
With the risk of bringing up the old "less/more government" warhorse, in spite of all the fear-mongering claiming that the Obama administration was anti-business and would put a stranglehold on energy production, in fact, environmentalists have more to be disappointed about. Not only has energy production increased dramatically over the course of the Obama administrator, but the U.S. has been a net oil EXPORTER of oil since 2010, mainly due to the fact that the greedy oil companies are able to U.S. produced oil more expensively in foreign markets. Traditional oil product and water-consuming and CO-producing shale oil production have risen dramatically. And with the newest State Department saying that the Keystone pipeline would neither increase nor decrease the environmental destroying effects of shale oil effects (mainly because it's either going to happen in Canada or in the U.S.), it seems quite likely that Obama will approve the project, since he doesn't need to worry about being re-elected.
So, what we're essentially seeing is a total lack of regulatory control over shale oil production, allowing it to generate excess CO2, suck up precious groundwater, and pollute the water tables in the regions where it's occurring. And what's ironically is most of the shale area fields are situated in regions whose local populations are opposed to government interference in private industry. It will be interesting to see what happens when these people discover that they have no water for their farms and that their drinking water is polluted with cancer causing chemicals. Who will they turn for help? The oil companies?
Just saw an article that says the Colorado River is drying up.
Did you know that over the last 50+ years, intensive water consumption and population expansion has caused the lower 100 miles of the river to dry up so much that the Colorado River no longer reaches the sea except in years of heavy runoff.
With the risk of bringing up the old "less/more government" warhorse, in spite of all the fear-mongering claiming that the Obama administration was anti-business and would put a stranglehold on energy production, in fact, environmentalists have more to be disappointed about. Not only has energy production increased dramatically over the course of the Obama administrator, but the U.S. has been a net oil EXPORTER of oil since 2010, mainly due to the fact that the greedy oil companies are able to U.S. produced oil more expensively in foreign markets. Traditional oil product and water-consuming and CO-producing shale oil production have risen dramatically. And with the newest State Department saying that the Keystone pipeline would neither increase nor decrease the environmental destroying effects of shale oil effects (mainly because it's either going to happen in Canada or in the U.S.), it seems quite likely that Obama will approve the project, since he doesn't need to worry about being re-elected.
So, what we're essentially seeing is a total lack of regulatory control over shale oil production, allowing it to generate excess CO2, suck up precious groundwater, and pollute the water tables in the regions where it's occurring. And what's ironically is most of the shale area fields are situated in regions whose local populations are opposed to government interference in private industry. It will be interesting to see what happens when these people discover that they have no water for their farms and that their drinking water is polluted with cancer causing chemicals. Who will they turn for help? The oil companies?
Good points, all.
Funny, if you think about it, one of Obamas first acts as President was to issue a second bailout to the capitalists and industries that bankrupted the country with their un-regulated pyramid schemes. This belies the old saw that the investors should make untold sums of money from the labors of others, because they're the ones risking their capital. Small risk, knowing that Washington will wipe their poor worried brows with your tax dollars.
Thus, the very richest have continued to become ever richer during his presidency. Wall St. has done fine.
Also, Obama has deported more illegal aliens than any other president, ever.
Guantanamo is still open for business
We're still in Afghanistan, still begging Karzai to beg us to stay, and while the soldiers may take a few hits, the military industrial complex is doing quite well indeed.
Unions continue to lose ground consistently throughout the country. Corporations continue to pollute and abuse at will, with little or no regulatory backlash.
I guess what it all boils down to is, if this guy is the Socialist that the media would have us believe, he's got to be the worst socialist ever!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Funny, if you think about it, one of Obamas first acts as President was to issue a second bailout to the capitalists and industries that bankrupted the country with their un-regulated pyramid schemes. This belies the old saw that the investors should make untold sums of money from the labors of others, because they're the ones risking their capital. Small risk, knowing that Washington will wipe their poor worried brows with your tax dollars.
Thus, the very richest have continued to become ever richer during his presidency. Wall St. has done fine.
Also, Obama has deported more illegal aliens than any other president, ever.
Guantanamo is still open for business
We're still in Afghanistan, still begging Karzai to beg us to stay, and while the soldiers may take a few hits, the military industrial complex is doing quite well indeed.
Unions continue to lose ground consistently throughout the country. Corporations continue to pollute and abuse at will, with little or no regulatory backlash.
I guess what it all boils down to is, if this guy is the Socialist that the media would have us believe, he's got to be the worst socialist ever!
*Sigh*. All of this is true, although, by pushing Dodd-Frank through (which is still largely unfunded, all these years) he made an attempt to put some control on Wall Street. And he did float the idea of closing Guantanamo, but Congress shut him down. And at least he got us out of the quagmire that is Iraq and at least most U.S. soldiers will be out of Afghanistan, which, as soon as they're gone, will go back to being the stone age warlord-ruled mess it's been for eons. And there was nothing he could do about protecting unions--that's really state business. And he did try to at least throw out the idea of taxing companies responsible for global warming, and that got nowhere in Congress. He really had only two years to get done what he wanted to get done--which, whether you like it or not, was an incredible amount. After the Tea Party swept through Congress in 2010, he was effectively powerless and has been ever since.
I could forgive him for not making headway on global warming and pollution, but I can't forgive him for letting wiretapping and privacy invasion go on as long as it has.
With regards to Amos last topic though, the Colorado River drying up....
On a similar note....did you see this article from the NY Times over the weekend?
Historic drought has U.S. West Fearing the Worst: With no sign of rain, 17 rural California communities providing water to 40,000 people are in danger of running out within 60 to 120 days
We are on track for having the worst drought in 500 years CLICK HERE for the Article
Also, check out the most recent Drought Monitor conditions, released last week. More info here.
@Amos_Umwhat said:
Another news item that got me wondering was:
The Afghan version of a council of elders is deciding whether or not the U.S. will be "allowed" to stay in Afghanistan.
What?
I thought that if you kicked somebodies ass, you got to decide what you would do and when. Don't get me wrong, I STRONGLY believe that we should bring every single American soldier out of Afghanistan as soon as possible, and that we should also let it be known that if countries want to screw with us we're going to lay them to waste, and Leave when we're good and ready. But, how stupid are we if we're letting the Afghan's decide this for us?
So, todays news, the Taliban is making rapid advances, and the Afghan army seems not to be putting up much resistance. Duh, it's their country. Maybe the really want the Taliban in charge? Could be.
Meanwhile, in Washington D.C. right wing war hawks are screeching that pulling out of Afghanistan amounts to "total surrender".
Surrender? It's Not Our War!
You want to stay until there's peace in Afghanistan? As far as I know, and I could be wrong (that's for Frank), but I think the last time Afghanistan had "peace" was when Genghis Khan was in charge. He had an ability to communicate in a way that the Afghani's can relate to. That was about 800 years ago.
What would make me think staying there's a good idea?
I'll be for staying in Afghanistan when they bring back the Draft and first round draft consists entirely of persons 18 - 40 years old within 2 generations of relationship to members of Congress, to be trained as Infantry and sent immediately to frontline positions in Afghanistan.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I my humble opinion, it is not about the issue of getting out of Afghanistan, it is the immediate and total abandon that has caused such a huge vacuum. After all the head way that was made over the last 4 years prior to this, to just pick up and leave without having a system in place to make sure they can adequately defend themselves. I understand how volatile the area is with all the different tribes and sects, it is difficult to assist them on joining together to be one nation. Hell, it seems to be difficult to do that here at times, but the average Afghani does want our help with that. Instead, after decades of fighting and losing good men and women to help those that need it, we just jump ship? Shameful. I knew this would happen though. Put the same guy in charge that did not want to go after Bin Laden and this is what happens. Should we have started this? That is another discussion for another day, but should we have pulled the fire alarm and ran out of the theater? Hell no. Finish the job, one way or another. These people that want our help are good people. I am saddened that we did not do more for them. I am also mad for my fallen brothers. It feels as though this administration has failed them and their gold star families by not finishing the job.
Rant over.
@CtheHam said:
I my humble opinion, it is not about the issue of getting out of Afghanistan, it is the immediate and total abandon that has caused such a huge vacuum. After all the head way that was made over the last 4 years prior to this, to just pick up and leave without having a system in place to make sure they can adequately defend themselves. I understand how volatile the area is with all the different tribes and sects, it is difficult to assist them on joining together to be one nation. Hell, it seems to be difficult to do that here at times, but the average Afghani does want our help with that. Instead, after decades of fighting and losing good men and women to help those that need it, we just jump ship? Shameful. I knew this would happen though. Put the same guy in charge that did not want to go after Bin Laden and this is what happens. Should we have started this? That is another discussion for another day, but should we have pulled the fire alarm and ran out of the theater? Hell no. Finish the job, one way or another. These people that want our help are good people. I am saddened that we did not do more for them. I am also mad for my fallen brothers. It feels as though this administration has failed them and their gold star families by not finishing the job.
Rant over.
I can't argue with any of that. I suppose I'm still mad that we went, and mad that my son lost his hand, as well as the 8 broken bones in his back. As you ask, "should we have started this?" I do feel for the people there who don't want Taliban 8th century mindset morons running their country. I wish I had an answer.
Sometimes, though, like today I just wish we'd stuck to hunting down the perpetrators of the 9/11 crimes and not tried our hand at "nation building". We have a perfectly good nation of our own that needs building. I said from the start, there's a reason Afghanistan is known as "the graveyard of empires". Surely there were better ways to help.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
@CtheHam said:
... the average Afghani does want our help...
I have never met the average Afghan, nor do I pretend to know what the average Afghan thinks, so, rather than make some wild and unsubstantiated speculation, I must defer to your expertise on this...
I'm still stuck on figuring out why what the average Afghan wants should matter to me.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
@CtheHam said:
... the average Afghani does want our help...
I have never met the average Afghan, nor do I pretend to know what the average Afghan thinks, so, rather than make some wild and unsubstantiated speculation, I must defer to your expertise on this...
I'm still stuck on figuring out why what the average Afghan wants should matter to me.
I think I can answer that for @CtheHam , because the average Afghan is still a human being.
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
😆
Well, it's not like we put it in the header of our posts.
Oh, wait....
On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if you read what I post, or simply look at the subject and spontaneously and erroneously arrive at what you believe to be my opinion. You so often seem to make the wildly inaccurate assumption that I'm echoing whatever the Right Wing talking heads are saying, which is hilarious to me. Then you argue against that position, usually by expounding on the points that I was making in the first place. I do appreciate the support of my positions, it's the tone that makes me wonder.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
@ForMud said:
I just hoped we pulled out it time......If not were going to owe child support.
Sorry
You might be too close to the truth, unfortunately, if you throw foreign aid into the mix.
With regard to the recent posts and the pull-out, I often wonder how much of the US' hegemony is built on hubris/pride, self-preservation (if we do nation-building we'll have fewer enemies), or just plain ol' profiteering.
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
😆
Well, it's not like we put it in the header of our posts.
Oh, wait....
On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if you read what I post, or simply look at the subject and spontaneously and erroneously arrive at what you believe to be my opinion. You so often seem to make the wildly inaccurate assumption that I'm echoing whatever the Right Wing talking heads are saying, which is hilarious to me. Then you argue against that position, usually by expounding on the points that I was making in the first place. I do appreciate the support of my positions, it's the tone that makes me wonder.
This is out of left field. A little self deprecating humor from me and all of the sudden you're completely triggered, I'm a stereotyper, and we are going to re-ajudicate a history of conversations. Don't know why you say any of that. You asked what my opinion was. I didn't reply point for point because you didn't ask me to. You asked me what my opinion was. I gave it.
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
😆
Well, it's not like we put it in the header of our posts.
Oh, wait....
On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if you read what I post, or simply look at the subject and spontaneously and erroneously arrive at what you believe to be my opinion. You so often seem to make the wildly inaccurate assumption that I'm echoing whatever the Right Wing talking heads are saying, which is hilarious to me. Then you argue against that position, usually by expounding on the points that I was making in the first place. I do appreciate the support of my positions, it's the tone that makes me wonder.
This is out of left field. A little self deprecating humor from me and all of the sudden you're completely triggered, I'm a stereotyper, and we are going to re-ajudicate a history of conversations. Don't know why you say any of that. You asked what my opinion was. I didn't reply point for point because you didn't ask me to. You asked me what my opinion was. I gave it.
No biggie.
The (that's for Frank) comment was self-deprecating humor.
I'm triggered? No, now I'm mystified. You read that as "triggered"? Oh my.
I think perhaps we each read a different source into each others posts. I'm fairly certain that you hear a voice that isn't mine when I post. In fact, that much I'm sure of. That's what I was referring to, when I state an opinion, you seem to hear the voice of some right wing extremist. Which is laughably preposterous.
However, possibly I'm not hearing where you're actually coming from either.
Or, perhaps we're both just cantankerous contentious curmudgeons. I know I sometimes am.
Are you familiar with Meyers-Briggs? I'm an INTP. Introverted intuitive thinking perceiver, as opposed to the opposite which would be ESFJ, extroverted sensing feeling judger. The vast majority of people are J's. INTP's are something less than 3 % of the total population.
The reason I bring this up is that for P's, such as myself, any new data can change our view of something. My view of anything is based on experience and knowledge, with the caveat that some new information could come to light which would change my view. This doesn't compute for people who are J's. They know that they know what they know, and anything else is to be discarded, ignored, or ridiculed.
So, when my P mind is contemplating or discussing anything, it's always open to change. However, I will give my opinion based on what I've experienced and what I know. When someone with a J mind, 85% of people, hears this opinion, it is natural that they assume that my mind will not be changed by what they say. Theirs will not be changed by what I say, because that's the way they are, and they assume everyone is.
So, when I say that I've always thought Afghanistan to be a lost cause, and then you seemingly argue that Afghanistan has always been a lost cause because of their world view of raising goats etc., that's what I was saying in the first place. Yet, does it not seem that you present your agreement as if it were an argument? Who is triggered?
At any rate, I enjoy the banter, and I know that I can be a cantankerous curmudgeon, I just wish I could get the feeling that you actually understand what I'm saying instead of re-wording what I'm saying and man-'splaining it back to me. Or, perhaps that's merely my impression, in which case I apologize.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Oh good, that should keep China busy for awhile and perhaps lessen their impact on the rest of the planet. I wonder if China will ask permission, like we tended to?
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
@VegasFrank said:
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
😆
Well, it's not like we put it in the header of our posts.
Oh, wait....
On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if you read what I post, or simply look at the subject and spontaneously and erroneously arrive at what you believe to be my opinion. You so often seem to make the wildly inaccurate assumption that I'm echoing whatever the Right Wing talking heads are saying, which is hilarious to me. Then you argue against that position, usually by expounding on the points that I was making in the first place. I do appreciate the support of my positions, it's the tone that makes me wonder.
This is out of left field. A little self deprecating humor from me and all of the sudden you're completely triggered, I'm a stereotyper, and we are going to re-ajudicate a history of conversations. Don't know why you say any of that. You asked what my opinion was. I didn't reply point for point because you didn't ask me to. You asked me what my opinion was. I gave it.
No biggie.
The (that's for Frank) comment was self-deprecating humor.
I'm triggered? No, now I'm mystified. You read that as "triggered"? Oh my.
I don't know man I guess so. I posted an opinion that agreed with yours, for different reasons but overall agreed, and you said that I think you're a right-wing extremist. Totally untrue. I don't know where you got it from. I agreed with you and I got s*** for it. I don't understand that.
I think perhaps we each read a different source into each others posts.
Probably that's fine. Different strokes.
I'm fairly certain that you hear a voice that isn't mine when I post. In fact, that much I'm sure of. That's what I was referring to, when I state an opinion, you seem to hear the voice of some right wing extremist. Which is laughably preposterous.
Your perception is not my reality here, but I guess it Is your reality, which makes it my problem. Sorry you feel that way. I think that you and most of the other guys on here read my s*** and see some left-wing extremist. Also totally false. It is what it is.
Or, perhaps we're both just cantankerous contentious curmudgeons. I know I sometimes am.
I mostly being a smart-ass and making a bunch of jokes that make me laugh even if they don't make you laugh. Maybe that's cantankerous. I get no emotional charge out of debating any of these topics.
Are you familiar with Meyers-Briggs?
I've heard of it and I've done it years ago. It's an interesting anecdotal categorization of personality traits. I find that people rely on it as truth data for 100% of every decision or every situation, And such an absolute is never true with anybody. I don't remember what my categories were to be honest with you.
So, when I say that I've always thought Afghanistan to be a lost cause, and then you seemingly argue that Afghanistan has always been a lost cause because of their world view of raising goats etc., that's what I was saying in the first place. Yet, does it not seem that you present your agreement as if it were an argument? Who is ttriggered
Um, you would be the one that's triggered. I didn't say you were wrong, did I? You perceived that I was arguing with you when I was agreeing with you. I never argued with you! I never said you were wrong! I had the same conclusion based on different data!
And since you thought I was arguing with you when I was actually agreeing with you, that makes you the triggered one brother! Is my logic faulty here? Am I being unreasonable?
Do I have to start every post with I agree with Amos or I disagree with Amos so that you know how to read between the lines of a post that was just a bunch of facts?
What would make you feel better about me and about you and about us?
At any rate, I enjoy the banter, and I know that I can be a cantankerous curmudgeon, I just wish I could get the feeling that you actually understand what I'm saying instead of re-wording what I'm saying and man-'splaining it back to me. Or, perhaps that's merely my impression, in which case I apologize.
I enjoy it too. I agree with you on a lot of things. Just because I have something to say doesn't mean that I'm arguing.
Comments
Now, as to sining Silent Night in public schools I am queasy about that. It is a religious song, not a secular song, and I remember back in school at our "nonvolunterary" class assemblies being forced to be on a stage signing holiday carols, and Silent Night was one of them. I hated singing anyway, so I mouthed the words, but I didn't fell comfortable having to sing something that imposed a religious viewpoint I didn't subscribe to (I wouldn't have wanted them to sing Chanukah songs, either).
I consider myself Christian, but, I have to admit, that there are not many denominations that will include me if my beliefs are entirely known. I've studied a lot of Gnosticism, and if you throw in what I learned from Tom Harpur's "The Pagan Christ", Geza Vermes "The Changing Face of Christ", and some works by Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels, you get close to what I really believe.
At one time I considered myself atheist, until some undeniable and overwhelming personal experiences taught me different. This "atheist" claim, too, is hogwash on the part of the petitioners in the suit to bring down the crucifix. If these people were truly atheist, it wouldn't bother them at all. They would consider it an archaic symbol of a bygone culture and treat it as a relic. No, they're not atheists, they are AntiChrist, or anti-God.
Back to the Silent Night issue. I spent Kindergarten through 4th grades in school in Brooklyn NY. Lots of Jewish kids. Actually, our church and the local synagogue used to have interfaith activities for us kids. Our pastor, Methodist in case anyone wonders, felt that it was important for us to understand the history, and before the events would stress to us that Jesus stated very clearly that He did not come to change one iota of the law, Jesus remained a Jew. At any rate, at that time, in our school, the Jewish kids got Holidays we didn't, and were excused from religiously oriented programs not directed toward Judaism, and there were no repercussions that I'm aware of. That's the way to handle it, I think.
Thanks for giving me a chance to express these things, I believe they need to be part of the discussion. At a National level, too.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
this is good for us:
this is bad for us:
this baffles us:
What can those mad ragheads possibly have against us?
Oh, believe me, there are plenty of intolerant and bigoted Jews. The vitriolic views of some groups that essentially view Israeli Arabs (those who live in Israel proper) and especially Palestinians as second-class citizens or much, much worse are particularly reprehensible. The ones calling for crosses to be taken out of cemeteries are, quite probably, of the extreme leftist groups; the same ones who support the boycott and divestiture movement against Israel and are every bit as reprehensible as the extreme right wing Jews who very publicly demonize Arabs and Muslims and equate any criticism of Israel's West Bank policies as anti-semitism (a whole set of issues that I totally wish to avoid any discussion of).
Really, I think the only stereotype that accurately applies to most Jews can be found in comedian Jackie Mason's classic joke: "Here's the main difference between Jews and Gentiles. A gentile goes to Vienna, and when he comes back he tells his friends, "I was so exciting to visit the homes of Mozart and Beethoven, see all of its beautiful architecture and culture." When a Jew goes to Vienna, he says, "When I was in Vienna, I had such a piece of cake!"
Just my two cents.
How stupid are we?
God knows.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
* I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *
With the risk of bringing up the old "less/more government" warhorse, in spite of all the fear-mongering claiming that the Obama administration was anti-business and would put a stranglehold on energy production, in fact, environmentalists have more to be disappointed about. Not only has energy production increased dramatically over the course of the Obama administrator, but the U.S. has been a net oil EXPORTER of oil since 2010, mainly due to the fact that the greedy oil companies are able to U.S. produced oil more expensively in foreign markets. Traditional oil product and water-consuming and CO-producing shale oil production have risen dramatically. And with the newest State Department saying that the Keystone pipeline would neither increase nor decrease the environmental destroying effects of shale oil effects (mainly because it's either going to happen in Canada or in the U.S.), it seems quite likely that Obama will approve the project, since he doesn't need to worry about being re-elected.
So, what we're essentially seeing is a total lack of regulatory control over shale oil production, allowing it to generate excess CO2, suck up precious groundwater, and pollute the water tables in the regions where it's occurring. And what's ironically is most of the shale area fields are situated in regions whose local populations are opposed to government interference in private industry. It will be interesting to see what happens when these people discover that they have no water for their farms and that their drinking water is polluted with cancer causing chemicals. Who will they turn for help? The oil companies?
Funny, if you think about it, one of Obamas first acts as President was to issue a second bailout to the capitalists and industries that bankrupted the country with their un-regulated pyramid schemes. This belies the old saw that the investors should make untold sums of money from the labors of others, because they're the ones risking their capital. Small risk, knowing that Washington will wipe their poor worried brows with your tax dollars.
Thus, the very richest have continued to become ever richer during his presidency. Wall St. has done fine.
Also, Obama has deported more illegal aliens than any other president, ever.
Guantanamo is still open for business
We're still in Afghanistan, still begging Karzai to beg us to stay, and while the soldiers may take a few hits, the military industrial complex is doing quite well indeed.
Unions continue to lose ground consistently throughout the country.
Corporations continue to pollute and abuse at will, with little or no regulatory backlash.
I guess what it all boils down to is, if this guy is the Socialist that the media would have us believe, he's got to be the worst socialist ever!
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I could forgive him for not making headway on global warming and pollution, but I can't forgive him for letting wiretapping and privacy invasion go on as long as it has.
With regards to Amos last topic though, the Colorado River drying up....
On a similar note....did you see this article from the NY Times over the weekend?
Historic drought has U.S. West Fearing the Worst: With no sign of rain, 17 rural California communities providing water to 40,000 people are in danger of running out within 60 to 120 days
We are on track for having the worst drought in 500 years
CLICK HERE for the Article
Also, check out the most recent Drought Monitor conditions, released last week. More info here.
* I have a new address as of 3/24/18 *
So, todays news, the Taliban is making rapid advances, and the Afghan army seems not to be putting up much resistance. Duh, it's their country. Maybe the really want the Taliban in charge? Could be.
Meanwhile, in Washington D.C. right wing war hawks are screeching that pulling out of Afghanistan amounts to "total surrender".
Surrender? It's Not Our War!
You want to stay until there's peace in Afghanistan? As far as I know, and I could be wrong (that's for Frank), but I think the last time Afghanistan had "peace" was when Genghis Khan was in charge. He had an ability to communicate in a way that the Afghani's can relate to. That was about 800 years ago.
What would make me think staying there's a good idea?
I'll be for staying in Afghanistan when they bring back the Draft and first round draft consists entirely of persons 18 - 40 years old within 2 generations of relationship to members of Congress, to be trained as Infantry and sent immediately to frontline positions in Afghanistan.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I my humble opinion, it is not about the issue of getting out of Afghanistan, it is the immediate and total abandon that has caused such a huge vacuum. After all the head way that was made over the last 4 years prior to this, to just pick up and leave without having a system in place to make sure they can adequately defend themselves. I understand how volatile the area is with all the different tribes and sects, it is difficult to assist them on joining together to be one nation. Hell, it seems to be difficult to do that here at times, but the average Afghani does want our help with that. Instead, after decades of fighting and losing good men and women to help those that need it, we just jump ship? Shameful. I knew this would happen though. Put the same guy in charge that did not want to go after Bin Laden and this is what happens. Should we have started this? That is another discussion for another day, but should we have pulled the fire alarm and ran out of the theater? Hell no. Finish the job, one way or another. These people that want our help are good people. I am saddened that we did not do more for them. I am also mad for my fallen brothers. It feels as though this administration has failed them and their gold star families by not finishing the job.
Rant over.
I can't argue with any of that. I suppose I'm still mad that we went, and mad that my son lost his hand, as well as the 8 broken bones in his back. As you ask, "should we have started this?" I do feel for the people there who don't want Taliban 8th century mindset morons running their country. I wish I had an answer.
Sometimes, though, like today I just wish we'd stuck to hunting down the perpetrators of the 9/11 crimes and not tried our hand at "nation building". We have a perfectly good nation of our own that needs building. I said from the start, there's a reason Afghanistan is known as "the graveyard of empires". Surely there were better ways to help.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
You summoned me by calling my name @Amos_Umwhat so you're going to have to read my opinion.
It's quite simple. It's unwinnable from our point of view for the simplest reason in the entire world. Afghanis don't give two farts in the wind about freedom. They don't care about being part of the world order. They just don't. They care about mining lapis and raising goats and growing grain. And praising Allah. None of that is derogatory. Those are great things to care about.
We give them freedom. We give them a system. They don't want it! These people in these tribes have been fighting for a thousand years and they will be fighting for the next thousand years. The only mistake that we made was thinking that we could nation build. We thought we could change them. We thought that we could turn them into Japan.
Japan seems like a good model. They were fighting for thousands of years with the Chinese. They were trying to dominate the South Pacific for thousands of years. The entire country had a warrior ethos. We changed that with two payloads in 1945. There's a difference between Japan and everywhere else we've ever tried it ever before.
That difference is religion. Japan's culture was not entirely based on religion. Sure, religious sentiment was at the core, but it wasn't the entire core. And when you see two cities go up in flames with two bombs, you know you have to change or you die. Tokyo would have been next and if not next, within the next five. Japan was a once in a lifetime, once in a planet, event because delivering nuclear payload was a once-in-a-lifetime, once in a planet event.
We also completely disassembled Japan's military, we didn't try to rebuild it in our image so that these people could fight their brothers.
We should have our collective heads examined for the last 20 years of mistakes. There was a line in the TV series Homeland that saul made to a military general. He said something like "You haven't fought a 15-year war, you have fought 15 1-year wars."
It's so true. I was having lunch with some co-workers just this afternoon, and one guy told me that he had done eight 6 months deployments to Afghanistan in his career. That is 4 years of his life. And now it was all for literally nothing. He gave 4 years away from his wife and kids. Four years of missed holidays and birthdays. And now Afghanistan will return to the state that it was in back in the year 2000.
I have never met the average Afghan, nor do I pretend to know what the average Afghan thinks, so, rather than make some wild and unsubstantiated speculation, I must defer to your expertise on this...
I'm still stuck on figuring out why what the average Afghan wants should matter to me.
I think I can answer that for @CtheHam , because the average Afghan is still a human being.
So, you're saying that once again we agree on nearly every point? Good to hear. Reading my opinions over the last decade or so will verify this beyond any shadow of doubt.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Yeah. Too bad for you I can't even remember what anyone's state is. I'm a total dolt. So you've won over the idiots of the world. Congratulations.
😆
Well, it's not like we put it in the header of our posts.
Oh, wait....
On a more serious note, I do sometimes wonder if you read what I post, or simply look at the subject and spontaneously and erroneously arrive at what you believe to be my opinion. You so often seem to make the wildly inaccurate assumption that I'm echoing whatever the Right Wing talking heads are saying, which is hilarious to me. Then you argue against that position, usually by expounding on the points that I was making in the first place. I do appreciate the support of my positions, it's the tone that makes me wonder.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I just hoped we pulled out it time......If not were going to owe child support.
Sorry
You might be too close to the truth, unfortunately, if you throw foreign aid into the mix.
With regard to the recent posts and the pull-out, I often wonder how much of the US' hegemony is built on hubris/pride, self-preservation (if we do nation-building we'll have fewer enemies), or just plain ol' profiteering.
This is out of left field. A little self deprecating humor from me and all of the sudden you're completely triggered, I'm a stereotyper, and we are going to re-ajudicate a history of conversations. Don't know why you say any of that. You asked what my opinion was. I didn't reply point for point because you didn't ask me to. You asked me what my opinion was. I gave it.
No biggie.
Looks like China might be the next in a long line of countries to give it a try......
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/552587-america-departs-afghanistan-as-china-arrives
Knew that was going to happen, Russia already tried so that only leaves China to try and fill the US void.
Pretty solid symbolism
The (that's for Frank) comment was self-deprecating humor.
I'm triggered? No, now I'm mystified. You read that as "triggered"? Oh my.
I think perhaps we each read a different source into each others posts. I'm fairly certain that you hear a voice that isn't mine when I post. In fact, that much I'm sure of. That's what I was referring to, when I state an opinion, you seem to hear the voice of some right wing extremist. Which is laughably preposterous.
However, possibly I'm not hearing where you're actually coming from either.
Or, perhaps we're both just cantankerous contentious curmudgeons. I know I sometimes am.
Are you familiar with Meyers-Briggs? I'm an INTP. Introverted intuitive thinking perceiver, as opposed to the opposite which would be ESFJ, extroverted sensing feeling judger. The vast majority of people are J's. INTP's are something less than 3 % of the total population.
The reason I bring this up is that for P's, such as myself, any new data can change our view of something. My view of anything is based on experience and knowledge, with the caveat that some new information could come to light which would change my view. This doesn't compute for people who are J's. They know that they know what they know, and anything else is to be discarded, ignored, or ridiculed.
So, when my P mind is contemplating or discussing anything, it's always open to change. However, I will give my opinion based on what I've experienced and what I know. When someone with a J mind, 85% of people, hears this opinion, it is natural that they assume that my mind will not be changed by what they say. Theirs will not be changed by what I say, because that's the way they are, and they assume everyone is.
So, when I say that I've always thought Afghanistan to be a lost cause, and then you seemingly argue that Afghanistan has always been a lost cause because of their world view of raising goats etc., that's what I was saying in the first place. Yet, does it not seem that you present your agreement as if it were an argument? Who is triggered?
At any rate, I enjoy the banter, and I know that I can be a cantankerous curmudgeon, I just wish I could get the feeling that you actually understand what I'm saying instead of re-wording what I'm saying and man-'splaining it back to me. Or, perhaps that's merely my impression, in which case I apologize.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Oh good, that should keep China busy for awhile and perhaps lessen their impact on the rest of the planet. I wonder if China will ask permission, like we tended to?
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
I don't know man I guess so. I posted an opinion that agreed with yours, for different reasons but overall agreed, and you said that I think you're a right-wing extremist. Totally untrue. I don't know where you got it from. I agreed with you and I got s*** for it. I don't understand that.
Probably that's fine. Different strokes.
Your perception is not my reality here, but I guess it Is your reality, which makes it my problem. Sorry you feel that way. I think that you and most of the other guys on here read my s*** and see some left-wing extremist. Also totally false. It is what it is.
I mostly being a smart-ass and making a bunch of jokes that make me laugh even if they don't make you laugh. Maybe that's cantankerous. I get no emotional charge out of debating any of these topics.
I've heard of it and I've done it years ago. It's an interesting anecdotal categorization of personality traits. I find that people rely on it as truth data for 100% of every decision or every situation, And such an absolute is never true with anybody. I don't remember what my categories were to be honest with you.
Um, you would be the one that's triggered. I didn't say you were wrong, did I? You perceived that I was arguing with you when I was agreeing with you. I never argued with you! I never said you were wrong! I had the same conclusion based on different data!
And since you thought I was arguing with you when I was actually agreeing with you, that makes you the triggered one brother! Is my logic faulty here? Am I being unreasonable?
Do I have to start every post with I agree with Amos or I disagree with Amos so that you know how to read between the lines of a post that was just a bunch of facts?
What would make you feel better about me and about you and about us?
I enjoy it too. I agree with you on a lot of things. Just because I have something to say doesn't mean that I'm arguing.
Mansplaining is always better than Momsplaning.