Ken, for the most part, I'm 100% with you right ^ there. I'm as guilty of the next guy for the " *user* PM" post. I REALLY wish, (and I'm going to try again) that I could take a smidgen of control on the forums themselves. Just some moderation and forum controls. Not worried about "power" over the members, but the boards need help. I'm not going to get to far into that...we all know how much help these boards need.
I already forgot who said it, but the boards themselves are part of the problem. I've owned, operated, and maintained forums in the past. It's seriously 30sec of work, to open a new area to post in. Another 30sec to turn on PM notifications, etc.
LoL, you want to take control? And you've tried already? You want to moderate? Really? One forum under Boots? I'd rather you get real far into it. Tell us your plan, Herr Boots.
No no...not what I meant. Moderation is the wrong word, and I do apologize for using it. It's just that these boards were installed a few years ago, and left to collect dust. There are simple things that could be done, to make a better experience for everyone. That's all I would be looking to do. I don't want power over anyone. I didn't word that very well the first time. I just think there is a lot more to what could be done around here.
Here's a point...does post count matter or time on the forums?? I'd rather have time on the forums then post count!
Here is a different look on post count!!
My Look!!
You guys have made me feel comfortable enough to want to interact with everyone, I could give a rats butt about who keeps score and or count of the posts I make here. I have only been here for a short time, I am a noob and I accept that. I ask questions when I do not know something or I see someone talking about something new to me.
You guys have taught me how to be a BOTL, I never knew what that even meant before I came here. Veteran or Noobie, we are people who can be anything we want behind the keyboard.
This is just my Two Cents, and Im happy to be here!!!
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
Yep agree here, like playing with myself too!!!
I'll play with you.........wait........that came out wrong
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
Yep agree here, like playing with myself too!!!
I'll play with you.........wait........that came out wrong
*edited because I need to pay attention sometimes*
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
Yep agree here, like playing with myself too!!!
I'll play with you.........wait........that came out wrong
Is that what's going on in the V-Herf tonight?
wrong thread.....I'm not letting you lead this thread down a rabbit hole.
I guess my response would be......meh. Pretty sure I'm not in any cliques. I don't really vherf and don't follow lots of things. Don't think it has any impact on my participation. Then again, I don't let anything really bother me.
Yep agree here, like playing with myself too!!!
I'll play with you.........wait........that came out wrong
Is that what's going on in the V-Herf tonight?
wrong thread.....I'm not letting you lead this thread down a rabbit hole.
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
I'm not saying we're not accommodating, but you cannot account for those that create an account and never appear. Of course it's working for those that are here, that's kind of a tautology.
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
I'm not saying we're not accommodating, but you cannot account for those that create an account and never appear. Of course it's working for those that are here, that's kind of a tautology.
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
I'm not saying we're not accommodating, but you cannot account for those that create an account and never appear. Of course it's working for those that are here, that's kind of a tautology.
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
I'm not saying we're not accommodating, but you cannot account for those that create an account and never appear. Of course it's working for those that are here, that's kind of a tautology.
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
Just a newcomer's view of things on here. I understand what you're saying.. kinda like it's becoming it's own clique and not letting anyone in. I know this because i've been reading the forums for a long time lol. Yes, there are a few signs of that but since i've joined i've received quite a few pms welcoming me to the forums. From what I've experienced i'd say there are quite a few welcoming people on here and it may not be as bad as you think it is.
The one reason I'm not worried about this is that no one seems reluctant to let new people in on the old jokes or are really exclusionary. When someone asks a question it's answered, whether that answer makes any sense is a hole other matter. The number of new guys around lately that have dived balls-first into the games and bombing, and then for the FOG's to join in rather than ignore or belittle says there's nothing really to worry about. Trust me, I was once the only male on a staff of 30, I KNOW cliques.
I'm not saying we're not accommodating, but you cannot account for those that create an account and never appear. Of course it's working for those that are here, that's kind of a tautology.
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
Oh sure, it's hard to say why some will participate and some won't absent a positive assertion, it's hard to measure or evaluate a non-occurrence. I think if a new guy popped up and tried to participate according to the rules (or no one tried to help steer him correctly) and was beat down and left then we'd have a problem, but we would also see that in some manner. Still being, relatively speaking, an FNG and not terribly active i don't feel the least bit excluded by the goings on because when I choose to join in I'm welcomed. And several guys have gone out of their way to start passes or games just for the very new, which I don't see many other places.
This forum would make a fascinating subject for someone's doctoral dissertation on social media group dynamics. Face-to-face group interactions are complex enough, but introduce the anonymity and absence of body language and facial expressions that are inherent in this medium - add a bunch of people from all sorts of backgrounds, age groups, social demographics, whose one unifying interest is lighting aromatic leaves on fire and breathing in their intoxicating vapors - weave into the mix of topical and educational discussions the tantalizing possibility that some generous individual halfway across the country may, just for kicks and giggles, mail you a box full of one of your favorite commodities - and you have a recipe for... well... whatever it is that we have here.
In a setting such as this, different personalities are bound to express themselves in different ways. One of the great things about a forum is that, while unified around a basic theme or shared interest, it lends itself to free expression. Within that framework, some will lurk - some will educate - some will wise crack - some will seek attention - some will amuse - some will annoy - some will be inappropriate - some will seek to maintain order - some will push the envelope. The amalgamation of all of these modes of self-expression (and more) has a way of policing itself.
As someone who jumped into this wondrous experiment only a few short weeks ago, I have found it to be all-of-the-above. It's difficult to guage the boundaries of a group in person, and perhaps even more so in an online community. Unlike some, I am more inclined to simply jump in than to spend weeks or months lurking. When I did, I found, almost immediately, a warm and welcoming group who were willing to help. It was also clear to me early on that a new member needs to build rapport and good will, especially before expecting to "do business" with other members. What also became apparent early on was the mix of great cigar info, warm comraderie, and playful silliness of the group - all of which made me glad I had found the site.
As for the "inside jokes," I didn't find them off-putting as a newcomer. On the contrary, they made me feel like I was joining a group that knew each other well, and that enjoyed passing on the jokes to newbies... all in good time. The one thing that did come to bother me was what seemed to me to be a less-than-subtle posturing on the part of a few to be constantly "in the line of fire." It wasn't immediately clear to me, as a newb, whether this was just how the game is played, or if some folks were just pushing an agenda to get the attention of the "big bombers." I've gotten caught up in the banter too, so I'm not judging here... just sharing my perspectives as a recent participant, for what it's worth.
Bottom line, as I see it, is that the value of a forum like this is its variety, so long as the main point - our mutual love of the leaf - doesn't get lost in the process. Perhaps putting a finer point on the parameters of particular forums would help to keep the noise from becoming a nuisance to those who prefer a quieter neighborhood. Perhaps it's a good thing for the FOG's to occasionally bark at the over-enthusiastic newbies and remind them to exercise decorum when they get carried away. But it would be a shame to put a stigma on the silly-factor. To me, that's a big part of what gives this big 'ol stogie it's spice!
"When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
I'm a writer... and sometimes I get a bit carried away. :^)
"When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
I took a break from here because of life. I also had a few moments that I got into a stupid pissing match with a guy or two and that also made me realize that I was losing what this was all about. Supposed to be a brotherhood, fun, and informative. Cigars bring people from all walks of life together and for a moment we are all equals no matter your race, sex, age, social status, etc.
We all remember being new and discovering a forum where you can trade and play games and get bombed. You can barely contain yourself. I think it can all be overwhelming but the guys who are going to contribute and become part of the family here will stick it out and figure it out.
Everyone's input here has been informative. I understand where you are coming from Ken and I also understand everyone else's points of view on this. Yes, it will never be like the old days when I first joined but outside of the forums I still remain friends with many brothers who aren't here anymore. I am confident I will make many more friends and hopefully be a good contributor.
I agree with cigary, its cyclical. It happens on all forums, not just cigar. Yes it's going to drive people away, not just noobs it's a large part of the reason I'm not around much. But it happens on all of them. Just know, no matter what your intentions you are creating a 'clique' by doing it.
Maddy?!! How ya been man, haven't seen you on here since I started frequenting again.
First, I just want to say that post counts on any forum don't mean crap. Many of the people with the highest post counts contribute the least. I'm not pointing at anybody here in particular but look at any forum and at least half the people with the highest post counts never post anything of substance.
kuzi16:
Rain:
This is not the board of old and it never will be.
aint that the truth.
some things are better. some are worse. thus is life.
Yep there's nothing wrong with it changing. Guys leave for whatever reason, new guys come in and the identity changes. The bombs, games and contests are on a whole different level than they were a few years back.
I'll just be honest with you guys and tell you what bothers me about this forum now. There is no debate. There are arguments occasionally but no debate. Kuzi and I used to disagree on everything and yet I still considered him a friend. Hell, when I was in Ohio I meet him in a dive bar and smoked some great cigars and had even better conversation. There is way too much back-patting going on for my taste. Someone posts something then its a line of people agreeing, then the thread goes off topic or dies. When someone does challenge the initial posters thoughts if the OP is part of the inner circle then the challenger is ganged up on or ignored. I've stalked around enough on here to see it happen more than a couple times. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what the forum has become, if you guys are happy with it then that is great. But it's definitely clique behavior and yes clique has negative connotations and I was aware of that when I posted it.
I'm not speaking from purely an observational perspective here. Last time I posted on this forum for a few days, I was trying to create a little debate. I enjoy debate, having someone challenge my opinions makes me do more research and learn more which is my goal. Hell, debates have led to me learning something new that completely changed my view on the original subject a number of times in my life. Anyway, I digress. My initial point was that when I tried to create a little debate on this forum. I was hit with numerous PMs telling me in varying terms that I was a d!ck. I expect a few more this time, I'm fine with that, I'm not a sensitive person.
I'm not asking you guys to change or anything. I was just excited to see a post that would actually create a little debate on here, but it didn't it just created a whole lot more back-patting.
I agree with cigary, its cyclical. It happens on all forums, not just cigar. Yes it's going to drive people away, not just noobs it's a large part of the reason I'm not around much. But it happens on all of them. Just know, no matter what your intentions you are creating a 'clique' by doing it.
Maddy?!! How ya been man, haven't seen you on here since I started frequenting again.
I've been great dude, how've you been? You can read my last post to see why I haven't been round much, lol. I saw you were deployed and coming back soon. Welcome home soon man.
Pretty good man, pretty good. Yeah, I should be home around the 1st of March or so, it'll be nice to be home (hopefully) for a while this time. I only had six months with the family after Korea before I came out here. And yeah, the forum is definitely alot different than it used to be. I've always kind of avoided any drama, but I do agree a good debate every now and then is nice.
First, I just want to say that post counts on any forum don't mean crap. Many of the people with the highest post counts contribute the least. I'm not pointing at anybody here in particular but look at any forum and at least half the people with the highest post counts never post anything of substance.
kuzi16:
Rain:
This is not the board of old and it never will be.
aint that the truth.
some things are better. some are worse. thus is life.
Yep there's nothing wrong with it changing. Guys leave for whatever reason, new guys come in and the identity changes. The bombs, games and contests are on a whole different level than they were a few years back.
I'll just be honest with you guys and tell you what bothers me about this forum now. There is no debate. There are arguments occasionally but no debate. Kuzi and I used to disagree on everything and yet I still considered him a friend. Hell, when I was in Ohio I meet him in a dive bar and smoked some great cigars and had even better conversation. There is way too much back-patting going on for my taste. Someone posts something then its a line of people agreeing, then the thread goes off topic or dies. When someone does challenge the initial posters thoughts if the OP is part of the inner circle then the challenger is ganged up on or ignored. I've stalked around enough on here to see it happen more than a couple times. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what the forum has become, if you guys are happy with it then that is great. But it's definitely clique behavior and yes clique has negative connotations and I was aware of that when I posted it.
I'm not speaking from purely an observational perspective here. Last time I posted on this forum for a few days, I was trying to create a little debate. I enjoy debate, having someone challenge my opinions makes me do more research and learn more which is my goal. Hell, debates have led to me learning something new that completely changed my view on the original subject a number of times in my life. Anyway, I digress. My initial point was that when I tried to create a little debate on this forum. I was hit with numerous PMs telling me in varying terms that I was a d!ck. I expect a few more this time, I'm fine with that, I'm not a sensitive person.
I'm not asking you guys to change or anything. I was just excited to see a post that would actually create a little debate on here, but it didn't it just created a whole lot more back-patting.
all of this. i had that happen to me recently. started a thread to start a discussion and i was chastised for it.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here. much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
That's tough man. You going to be home longer this time?
Yeah, hopefully. There's no current plan on us going anywhere in the near future, so here's hoping, lol.
To get back on track, I can't believe Matt and you got PM'd about starting a thread for some discussion/debate. I kind of thought that was what the forums was all about. I never really used to go into the off-topic forums because I really have no interest in politics or most of the stuff that seemed to normally get covered in there, but I remember quite a few back-and-forths about cigars themselves, whether the topic be on particular blenders, factories, brands, etc. I haven't really given it much thought, but now that I do think about it I haven't noticed anything like that on here since I've been back. Its mostly just "I like this brand/blender." or "I hate Gurkha.", lol.
As far as the OP, I can see where you are coming from, and I can see how its off-putting to a newer member. We always did have some Ccom only lingo and inside jokes, though. BORK has already been brought up (which for the life of me I can't remember what it stood for, its been so long). There used to also be the burro jokes, mainly propagated by Dutyje and Urbino, lol. Maybe it is a little more dense now than it used to be, but that will probably lessen down over time as well. I think, like a few people here have said, its all cyclical. A PM notification option would be great in reducing the "Hey _____, check your PMs" threads, but honestly, those have been a part of the forum since I joined.
all of this. i had that happen to me recently. started a thread to start a discussion and i was chastised for it.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here. much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
im not offended. im not mad. again, thus is life.
I'll go ahead and throw my own two pennies in the bowl. Like Kuzi says, people are here for different reasons. Unlike Kuzi, I aint here to debate a thing, and I'll steer myself away from such activities. If this was all debate, I wouldn't even be here. But I liked what I saw - people having fun, joking around, and bombing people. I'm here to unload my stash making room for other stash, and maybe making some folks happy along the way. I honestly don't care what kind of cigars people may or may not like - I don't mean that to sound mean or ugly - it's just that flavor makes the world go around. Theres a place for every cigar (almost).
There are a couple people I could do without, and I don't even interact with them in the least bit. No harm, no foul. I contribute to the threads that I like and don't dwell on the ones I don't. My goal in life is not to contribute to the problems of this world. So... back to my regular scheduled fun... time to post some DCs...
Comments
Here is a different look on post count!!
My Look!!
You guys have made me feel comfortable enough to want to interact with everyone, I could give a rats butt about who keeps score and or count of the posts I make here. I have only been here for a short time, I am a noob and I accept that. I ask questions when I do not know something or I see someone talking about something new to me.
You guys have taught me how to be a BOTL, I never knew what that even meant before I came here. Veteran or Noobie, we are people who can be anything we want behind the keyboard.
This is just my Two Cents, and Im happy to be here!!!
By the way...wtf is an FOG? Is it OG with an F for Forum?
some things are better.
some are worse.
thus is life.
In a setting such as this, different personalities are bound to express themselves in different ways. One of the great things about a forum is that, while unified around a basic theme or shared interest, it lends itself to free expression. Within that framework, some will lurk - some will educate - some will wise crack - some will seek attention - some will amuse - some will annoy - some will be inappropriate - some will seek to maintain order - some will push the envelope. The amalgamation of all of these modes of self-expression (and more) has a way of policing itself.
As someone who jumped into this wondrous experiment only a few short weeks ago, I have found it to be all-of-the-above. It's difficult to guage the boundaries of a group in person, and perhaps even more so in an online community. Unlike some, I am more inclined to simply jump in than to spend weeks or months lurking. When I did, I found, almost immediately, a warm and welcoming group who were willing to help. It was also clear to me early on that a new member needs to build rapport and good will, especially before expecting to "do business" with other members. What also became apparent early on was the mix of great cigar info, warm comraderie, and playful silliness of the group - all of which made me glad I had found the site.
As for the "inside jokes," I didn't find them off-putting as a newcomer. On the contrary, they made me feel like I was joining a group that knew each other well, and that enjoyed passing on the jokes to newbies... all in good time. The one thing that did come to bother me was what seemed to me to be a less-than-subtle posturing on the part of a few to be constantly "in the line of fire." It wasn't immediately clear to me, as a newb, whether this was just how the game is played, or if some folks were just pushing an agenda to get the attention of the "big bombers." I've gotten caught up in the banter too, so I'm not judging here... just sharing my perspectives as a recent participant, for what it's worth.
Bottom line, as I see it, is that the value of a forum like this is its variety, so long as the main point - our mutual love of the leaf - doesn't get lost in the process. Perhaps putting a finer point on the parameters of particular forums would help to keep the noise from becoming a nuisance to those who prefer a quieter neighborhood. Perhaps it's a good thing for the FOG's to occasionally bark at the over-enthusiastic newbies and remind them to exercise decorum when they get carried away. But it would be a shame to put a stigma on the silly-factor. To me, that's a big part of what gives this big 'ol stogie it's spice!
I'm a writer... and sometimes I get a bit carried away. :^)
We all remember being new and discovering a forum where you can trade and play games and get bombed. You can barely contain yourself. I think it can all be overwhelming but the guys who are going to contribute and become part of the family here will stick it out and figure it out.
Everyone's input here has been informative. I understand where you are coming from Ken and I also understand everyone else's points of view on this. Yes, it will never be like the old days when I first joined but outside of the forums I still remain friends with many brothers who aren't here anymore. I am confident I will make many more friends and hopefully be a good contributor.
Maddy?!! How ya been man, haven't seen you on here since I started frequenting again.
I'll just be honest with you guys and tell you what bothers me about this forum now. There is no debate. There are arguments occasionally but no debate. Kuzi and I used to disagree on everything and yet I still considered him a friend. Hell, when I was in Ohio I meet him in a dive bar and smoked some great cigars and had even better conversation.
There is way too much back-patting going on for my taste. Someone posts something then its a line of people agreeing, then the thread goes off topic or dies. When someone does challenge the initial posters thoughts if the OP is part of the inner circle then the challenger is ganged up on or ignored. I've stalked around enough on here to see it happen more than a couple times.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what the forum has become, if you guys are happy with it then that is great. But it's definitely clique behavior and yes clique has negative connotations and I was aware of that when I posted it.
I'm not speaking from purely an observational perspective here. Last time I posted on this forum for a few days, I was trying to create a little debate. I enjoy debate, having someone challenge my opinions makes me do more research and learn more which is my goal. Hell, debates have led to me learning something new that completely changed my view on the original subject a number of times in my life.
Anyway, I digress. My initial point was that when I tried to create a little debate on this forum. I was hit with numerous PMs telling me in varying terms that I was a d!ck. I expect a few more this time, I'm fine with that, I'm not a sensitive person.
I'm not asking you guys to change or anything. I was just excited to see a post that would actually create a little debate on here, but it didn't it just created a whole lot more back-patting.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here.
much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
im not offended. im not mad.
again, thus is life.
Yeah, hopefully. There's no current plan on us going anywhere in the near future, so here's hoping, lol.
To get back on track, I can't believe Matt and you got PM'd about starting a thread for some discussion/debate. I kind of thought that was what the forums was all about. I never really used to go into the off-topic forums because I really have no interest in politics or most of the stuff that seemed to normally get covered in there, but I remember quite a few back-and-forths about cigars themselves, whether the topic be on particular blenders, factories, brands, etc. I haven't really given it much thought, but now that I do think about it I haven't noticed anything like that on here since I've been back. Its mostly just "I like this brand/blender." or "I hate Gurkha.", lol.
As far as the OP, I can see where you are coming from, and I can see how its off-putting to a newer member. We always did have some Ccom only lingo and inside jokes, though. BORK has already been brought up (which for the life of me I can't remember what it stood for, its been so long). There used to also be the burro jokes, mainly propagated by Dutyje and Urbino, lol. Maybe it is a little more dense now than it used to be, but that will probably lessen down over time as well. I think, like a few people here have said, its all cyclical. A PM notification option would be great in reducing the "Hey _____, check your PMs" threads, but honestly, those have been a part of the forum since I joined.
There are a couple people I could do without, and I don't even interact with them in the least bit. No harm, no foul. I contribute to the threads that I like and don't dwell on the ones I don't. My goal in life is not to contribute to the problems of this world. So... back to my regular scheduled fun... time to post some DCs...