all of this. i had that happen to me recently. started a thread to start a discussion and i was chastised for it.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here. much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
im not offended. im not mad. again, thus is life.
I'll go ahead and throw my own two pennies in the bowl. Like Kuzi says, people are here for different reasons. Unlike Kuzi, I aint here to debate a thing, and I'll steer myself away from such activities. If this was all debate, I wouldn't even be here. But I liked what I saw - people having fun, joking around, and bombing people. I'm here to unload my stash making room for other stash, and maybe making some folks happy along the way. I honestly don't care what kind of cigars people may or may not like - I don't mean that to sound mean or ugly - it's just that flavor makes the world go around. Theres a place for every cigar (almost).
There are a couple people I could do without, and I don't even interact with them in the least bit. No harm, no foul. I contribute to the threads that I like and don't dwell on the ones I don't. My goal in life is not to contribute to the problems of this world. So... back to my regular scheduled fun... time to post some DCs...
I think the content of this thread sums up the forums. Just look at the number of different opinions in this thread. Some people want fun and games, some people want debate, some people want serious cigar discussions, some people are post whores, some people beg to be bombed, etc, etc. There is content here for everyone and no one is forcing you to click on a thread that you are not interested in or do not agree with.
I think the fun and games aspect keeps it interesting while there is still a ton of great information and knowledge to go along with it. If we were all stuck in the same place together for any length of time smoking cigars and discussing life, not everyone would get along. You walk to the other side of the room and start a discussion with someone else.
Just my opinion
I feel like this forum has gotten too 'inside.' I'm not even sure what I mean by that. The nachos, the PM threads...it's great to have inside jokes. But they shouldn't be every thread. I know even back in the day we had BORK. But I also know even that confused and turned off some people. I think it's great that there is a huge level of enthusiasm and camaraderie among noobs and all, but IMO it's gone too far on the public forum.
And while I'm throwing myself to the wolves I might as well go all out and mention that if I see another person say some fake "Uh oh" or "Nooooo, don't bomb me" or "I really did it this time" nonsense I'm gonna go homicidal. It's like a backseat at a drive-in around here sometimes.
Before I read the bashing (or more than likely feelings of "its all good bro") that everyone likely posted in return to your post-----I just wanted to say I agree with you 100%.........................Now on to what others say.
I also agree with alot of what Alien, Maduro (first guy i traded with on here), and Kuzi have said. Kuzi and I have had some heated discussions, and I will be man enough to say I even went over the line on a few occasions------but we still (hopefully) listened, learned, and had some good thought provocations....in addition to good cigar info of course. But lately-----well....
I don't know how many other forums you guys belong to but I belonged to more then a few. And let me tell ya.........The people on a couple of the were completely anti freedom of speech and they were all XXXXXXXX. If you ever voiced an opinion that contradicted there XXXXXXX BS you were either suspended or kicked off. But every forum, every single one of them took personal attacks, on another member very seriously and they acted quickly when it happened. All of them acted as quickly when it came to trolls and porn, which seems to be universal. Did I just jack this thread..?
There are a couple of people on here that when posting I have no idea what they are talking about. And as I said when I joined this forum (so long ago) I mentioned that the abbreviations drove me crazy and I felt like a lurker. Like BORK, I thought you were talking about "it is futile to resist" and it never made any sense. But this thread brings with it a lot of explanations and that is a good thing.
We all know, every single one of us, that being bombed, and the feigned fear and shock is all a joke and that the attempts to describe the damage is equally put on. H#ll, I loved being bombed. It makes my day and I feel good. I get the same good feeling when I send a "BOMB" to someone else. But, I have some real life experience with real bombs and, well, ya just never know. Not to worry though, my doctor has me on some new drugs and I feel much better now.
I feel like this forum has gotten too 'inside.' I'm not even sure what I mean by that. The nachos, the PM threads...it's great to have inside jokes. But they shouldn't be every thread. I know even back in the day we had BORK. But I also know even that confused and turned off some people. I think it's great that there is a huge level of enthusiasm and camaraderie among noobs and all, but IMO it's gone too far on the public forum.
And while I'm throwing myself to the wolves I might as well go all out and mention that if I see another person say some fake "Uh oh" or "Nooooo, don't bomb me" or "I really did it this time" nonsense I'm gonna go homicidal. It's like a backseat at a drive-in around here sometimes.
I also agree with alot of what Alien, Maduro (first guy i traded with on here), and Kuzi have said. Kuzi and I have had some heated discussions, and I will be man enough to say I even went over the line on a few occasions------but we still (hopefully) listened, learned, and had some good thought provocations....in addition to good cigar info of course. But lately-----well....
don't worry, it's all good! :0
Like Maduro, Vulchor, & Kuzi, I really enjoy the debates. Also, I think very much like these 3 and others, I don't change my opinion to a more popular one if I think the popular one is wrong. We've had our ups & downs here, but from the "fun & games" to the "down & dirty political discussions", I usually enjoy it all. Just don't expect me to believe some nonsense I know not to be true just because your favorite FOX truth-spinner or PMSNBC personality face says so.
Uh-oh, I'm thread jacking again.........
Seriously, I enjoy you guys and the opportunity to discuss cigars, and so many other things.
Thanks to all who participate, at whatever level.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I just wanted a place to hang out... to be a part of. Life tends to keep me busy... no time to really hang out. So this is where I come to relax, to chill, to talk man stuff and have fun. This is my neighborhood bar that i have dreamed of for years. This is where my friends are.
So i see every topic appropriate. everything fits.... its what makes this place this place. I agree I might be getting a little out of hand... (because I like to party) but this place is so much fun... its hard to not be wild.
I'm really glad to hear everyone's thoughts here, from both sides. I hadn't even thought about the lack of debate, but it's something that's definitely missing, and I miss it too now that it's been mentioned. Change and cycles happen, of course, but I'm just hoping there remains a place for all and that in general it's a welcoming and not intimidating place.
all of this. i had that happen to me recently. started a thread to start a discussion and i was chastised for it.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here. much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
im not offended. im not mad. again, thus is life.
I'll go ahead and throw my own two pennies in the bowl. Like Kuzi says, people are here for different reasons. Unlike Kuzi, I aint here to debate a thing, and I'll steer myself away from such activities. If this was all debate, I wouldn't even be here. But I liked what I saw - people having fun, joking around, and bombing people. I'm here to unload my stash making room for other stash, and maybe making some folks happy along the way. I honestly don't care what kind of cigars people may or may not like - I don't mean that to sound mean or ugly - it's just that flavor makes the world go around. Theres a place for every cigar (almost).
There are a couple people I could do without, and I don't even interact with them in the least bit. No harm, no foul. I contribute to the threads that I like and don't dwell on the ones I don't. My goal in life is not to contribute to the problems of this world. So... back to my regular scheduled fun... time to post some DCs...
I'd love to know the people you can do without and your reasoning considering your short time here, it took me years to come across a single person I wouldn't deal with and I can't think of any others that Id prefer of they left the board.
all of this. i had that happen to me recently. started a thread to start a discussion and i was chastised for it.
over the last two years or so i have posted less and less, mainly because of what maddy is talking about here. much like maddy, i am not trying to change the forums. if you all like them, good. enjoy. its just not the debate and discussion that used to be on the boards years ago.
im not offended. im not mad. again, thus is life.
I'll go ahead and throw my own two pennies in the bowl. Like Kuzi says, people are here for different reasons. Unlike Kuzi, I aint here to debate a thing, and I'll steer myself away from such activities. If this was all debate, I wouldn't even be here. But I liked what I saw - people having fun, joking around, and bombing people. I'm here to unload my stash making room for other stash, and maybe making some folks happy along the way. I honestly don't care what kind of cigars people may or may not like - I don't mean that to sound mean or ugly - it's just that flavor makes the world go around. Theres a place for every cigar (almost).
There are a couple people I could do without, and I don't even interact with them in the least bit. No harm, no foul. I contribute to the threads that I like and don't dwell on the ones I don't. My goal in life is not to contribute to the problems of this world. So... back to my regular scheduled fun... time to post some DCs...
I'd love to know the people you can do without and your reasoning considering your short time here, it took me years to come across a single person I wouldn't deal with and I can't think of any others that Id prefer of they left the board.
+1 I don't mean that in any confrontational sort of way (I'll assume Daniel means he same), I'm genuinely curious.
I've only been here a year, and I've seen a lot more of this insider "stuff" lately. It's always been here, but there's definitely a higher amount of it.
And shoot, just because someone sends a PM doesn't mean they have to post it! Give it a day or three. I can't always get on to check; and I rarely get messages, but when I get on the forum, it's usually one of the first things I do.
And, yes, insider language can turn away outsiders and even alienate those on the fringe even more. But I'm not sure anything will change or get rid of it.
Now, if someone wants to debate something, I say bring it on...in some cases. Depends on the discussion and if we're really trying to learn or are just two guys set in our opinions and nothing's going to change our minds. That's pointless. And I've seen a bunch of it lately.
Disengage. That's all I can say.
As for what I want; like has been said, this is like the neighborhood bar where I come to hang out. Sometimes I feel like I'm Fraser Crane around a bunch of Norms and Cliffs, though.
BTW, I always liked Norm and Cliff much more than Fraser!
Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
+1 I don't mean that in any confrontational sort of way (I'll assume Daniel means he same), I'm genuinely curious.
I'll sort of give you one... but only because he is no longer with us (and by that I should clarify and say he was kicked out). I have no idea how he was in the past. I have no intention of trying to find out. But what I did see of him myself, I couldn't stand the guy. Seems all he wanted to do was raise the likelihood of confrontation. So I never participated or answered in any of his threads. Not that I think that means anything to anyone else, just making a point to say if I don't like someon or some topic, I stay out of it. As for the other... I'm not saying. Could be a good person, just rubs me the wrong way and I don't want to influence someone one way or the other.
That case and another one I can think of offhand are situations when I wish we actually had some moderation, which is really a shame. The only tools we have as a community to deal with trolls is to ignore them or be rude hoping they will leave, which usually makes them stick around longer. Everyone has their preferred way of dealing with it and that conflict ends up bringing out negativity between upstanding members.
+1 I don't mean that in any confrontational sort of way (I'll assume Daniel means he same), I'm genuinely curious.
I'll sort of give you one... but only because he is no longer with us (and by that I should clarify and say he was kicked out). I have no idea how he was in the past. I have no intention of trying to find out. But what I did see of him myself, I couldn't stand the guy. Seems all he wanted to do was raise the likelihood of confrontation. So I never participated or answered in any of his threads. Not that I think that means anything to anyone else, just making a point to say if I don't like someon or some topic, I stay out of it. As for the other... I'm not saying. Could be a good person, just rubs me the wrong way and I don't want to influence someone one way or the other.
make any sense?
Well I like the guy you're referring too as a whole, and he kept it to the NCR forum as far as I know, and there are MANY botl's who simply avoid that place, and probably with good reason! But I get what you mean now. Maybe PM me the other? Well, not if it's me. Ok, even if it's me. ;D
It's OK Walt. You don't have to worry about hurting my feelings. ;^)
"When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
I also agree with alot of what Alien, Maduro (first guy i traded with on here), and Kuzi have said. Kuzi and I have had some heated discussions, and I will be man enough to say I even went over the line on a few occasions------but we still (hopefully) listened, learned, and had some good thought provocations....in addition to good cigar info of course. But lately-----well....
i did learn a lot from you. you challenged the way i think like few (if any) members since you joined have. yea it got intense but we are both grown men and we handled it like men. then we traded cigars and discussed the good and bad of what was on the daily deal, or the latest review by whoever posted it.
I also agree with alot of what Alien, Maduro (first guy i traded with on here), and Kuzi have said. Kuzi and I have had some heated discussions, and I will be man enough to say I even went over the line on a few occasions------but we still (hopefully) listened, learned, and had some good thought provocations....in addition to good cigar info of course. But lately-----well....
i did learn a lot from you. you challenged the way i think like few (if any) members since you joined have. yea it got intense but we are both grown men and we handled it like men. then we traded cigars and discussed the good and bad of what was on the daily deal, or the latest review by whoever posted it.
I think all of us have gotten carried away in a debate before. It happens. The point is its a debate and not an argument, it shouldn't change your opinion of that person. Its a debate of views. There are far too many sensitive people out there that think any challenge of their thoughts is a person attack.
I think a lot of you are missing, kuzi, alien, vulchor and my(a few others agreed as well) point. If you don't like the debate you don't have to respond or get involved and that's perfectly fine. Our point or mine any way is that this forum has become opposed to it and there are people that actively make sure it does not happen.
Back when I was really active, I could post I really like Nicaraguan tobacco. Kuzi would say I don't. There would be a couple clear jokes thrown back and forth about each others palette being comparable to a goats, with hahas or lols in there so EVERYONE knew it was a joke. Then we'd debate the merits of Nicarguan vs. Honduran tobacco. Why tobacco grown in this country or region provides this kind of flavor for me and I like that etc. The point was never to change his mind or mine your tastes are subjective. The point is we'd both engage each other and we'd both learn from it be it from research we did to support our own point or learning directly from the other person.
Life got in the way for me and I dropped off for a long time only popping in occasionally. So then a few months back I popped in for a week or so actually trying to be active again. I tried to engage a couple debates and the response I got was several PMs telling me I was a d!ck or how this person learned so much from my old posts but now I was just being an assh0le and they've lost respect for me, etc, etc. Those of you that said they learned from me or enjoyed my posts go back and look at those posts, THEY ALWAYS CAME OUT OF SOME DEBATE. I'm not going to deny that I'm argumentative or an assh0le. But I never make personal attacks, its a debate. There have been unfortunate instances were an ill-conceived joke or the way I worded something may have come across as that. I remove those posts and apologize when I realize that. Now I'm not afraid to offend someone. If someone was to tell me they don't think Cameroon is a sweeter tobacco, I'd have no problem telling them they are wrong and if they truly believe that they need to do some more tasting because they still have a lot to learn. Yes flavor is subjective but some things are pretty standard. My point there was that I'm not afraid to offend you and tell you that you are wrong in a debate. If that makes me an assh0le to some, so be it.
The whole point here is that is the type of debate that many of us engaged in daily on these old forums. Kuzi and I have both experienced the backlash of trying to have this kind of debate in the forums today. To call us names or ostracize us for being confrontational while you CONFRONT us and personally attack us in PMs, well ...
I personally don't understand the point in someone saying, "man I really like Nicaraguan tobacco" and everyone just posting "me too" or "I prefer Honduran". But if that floats your boat cool and if the vast majority of this forum does not like or want debate like I outlined above that's cool too. I can go else where and find debate and have. I continue to pop back in here because of the friends I've made that continue to reside here but I can be limited to just posting on kuzi's reviews and things like that. It doesn't hurt my feelings any. I just want those of you that think this forum is welcoming and not cliquish etc to see what is actually going on to not only newbie's but original members. I have zero doubt in my mind that many of the people that posted a few times and disappeared received similar PMs to what I received.
Yes there is no moderation on this forum and we've always self policed but that was for breaking general rules or personal attacks or things like that not because we didn't like what people said.
Again guys forums are made by the members if this is the kind of forum you guys want great. I just chimed in because to me it seemed like many of you didn't think this is what it is or what is going on.
Ken, sorry I took this in a little different direction that your original post. I think it was in the same spirit though. The inside joke stuff is a symptom of the clique behavior that is happening.
brianetz1:
Clique is a term that is used in a negative term where people are ostracized for how they act, what they think, or for no reason at all.
Some aren't intentionally trying to exclude people based on how they act or think but some actively are ... so by your definition you've got a clique going on.
I know I've said it repeatedly but this isn't an attack on you guys just my opinion. I don't like and don't want to participate much if this is what it is but that doesn't make it wrong. As someone else said, its an internet forum it is what it is ...
Ken, sorry I took this in a little different direction that your original post. I think it was in the same spirit though. The inside joke stuff is a symptom of the clique behavior that is happening.
You didn't do that at all, you enhanced the discussion greatly. To be honest, I originally was going to write something about how superficial I felt the forum had gotten, but I thought that was caused by the inside jokes and that the deeper meanings were hidden. That's probably part of it, there is a depth of relationship that still forms and that's become more hidden. But there used to be a depth of discussion as well that's sorely lacking, and I think there can only be two causes:
1) No one cares enough about cigars
2) Everyone is afraid to offend
If you fall into category 1, that you don't care enough or are not into it enough to discuss/debate, then I don't get why you're here. But maybe it's not that you don't care, but you feel like you don't know enough and you'll be attacked for some n00bish sounding opinion. I really hope not. Jump in the deep end, guys, say dumb@ss things, and more importantly make points from a perspective others have long forgotten or never had.
If people fall into category 2, though, and I'm afraid they do, and I hate that Kuzi and Maduro do because if we lose those guys in these debates then we've lost input of huge value, then something needs to change. We're all brothers here, but frankly it's unlikely that someone gives a **** about you personally enough to attack you, so realize they're attacking a concept or defending their own. There's nothing personal in cigars but the experience. Everything else is interesting debate.
If you fall into category 1, that you don't care enough or are not into it enough to discuss/debate, then I don't get why you're here. But maybe it's not that you don't care, but you feel like you don't know enough and you'll be attacked for some n00bish sounding opinion. I really hope not. Jump in the deep end, guys, say dumb@ss things, and more importantly make points from a perspective others have long forgotten or never had.
Pretty sure this is me. Haven't been in the hobby long enough to feel like I have an opinion about cigars that is worth posting or would actually enlighten anyone. So for me, jumping into the "play" interactions on the forum is a way to be involved and learn more in the process. As I get to feeling more confident in what I'm talking about, I will be more active in the debate/discussion threads.
But this is where I think the strength of this forum lies... It offers something for everyone, regardless of your experience/knowledge level. It has a good balance between fun and horsing around and information/discussion/debate. The problem probably comes when us noobs get a bit carried away with the fun and horsing around posts, and they seem like they're crowding out the info/discussion.
Personally, I browse all the forums and read the posts to try to learn more about cigars. At this stage of the game, I'm more comfortable posting in the more light-hearted threads... but I'll get there.
"When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Ken, sorry I took this in a little different direction that your original post. I think it was in the same spirit though. The inside joke stuff is a symptom of the clique behavior that is happening.
You didn't do that at all, you enhanced the discussion greatly. To be honest, I originally was going to write something about how superficial I felt the forum had gotten, but I thought that was caused by the inside jokes and that the deeper meanings were hidden. That's probably part of it, there is a depth of relationship that still forms and that's become more hidden. But there used to be a depth of discussion as well that's sorely lacking, and I think there can only be two causes:
1) No one cares enough about cigars
2) Everyone is afraid to offend
If you fall into category 1, that you don't care enough or are not into it enough to discuss/debate, then I don't get why you're here. But maybe it's not that you don't care, but you feel like you don't know enough and you'll be attacked for some n00bish sounding opinion. I really hope not. Jump in the deep end, guys, say dumb@ss things, and more importantly make points from a perspective others have long forgotten or never had.
If people fall into category 2, though, and I'm afraid they do, and I hate that Kuzi and Maduro do because if we lose those guys in these debates then we've lost input of huge value, then something needs to change. We're all brothers here, but frankly it's unlikely that someone gives a **** about you personally enough to attack you, so realize they're attacking a concept or defending their own. There's nothing personal in cigars but the experience. Everything else is interesting debate.
Ken,
What i feel this is shifting to is that some of the FOGs feel the "cigar" conversations aren't a part of the forum anymore and miss that aspect. Aren't some of these conversations happening in the Ratings and Review area? I ask because being here for a year, that to me is the area where hard core discussion and debate about tobacco happens. Discussion about specific cigars and their characteristics happens, industry trends, things like that tend to pop up there more than the general area.
based on a couple of PM convos that i have going this is where the FOGs think the newbs (and even some FOGs) are getting "lost" We see the general area as a general area to have some fun and meet other BOTLs. Make relationships around the basic hobby of cigars. Bring up topics that are loosely based around the hobby. Welcome new members with open arms. Arrange Herfs, vherfs, poker, social outings, and in general just shoot the ***. Apparently this was not always the intent of the General subforum.
If the general forum goes back to hard core conversation about cigars, i think you lose what the general forum is now because there will be no other place on the site for that type of interaction. The non-cigar forum is not a place that i like to go because of how hostile that place can get. i don't think i am alone in that feeling. Trades/bombing area is just that. The rest of the forums would be dedicated to hard core cigar topics. So where are the posters that are here daily (if not secondly) to go if that is not the intent of the area? Is it just as easy as either creating a separate subforum for everything that the general forum is used for now so that the General area can be cigar specific? Do you let the general area stay the way it is, but turn the ratings and review area into a cigar discussion zone including ratings and reviews?
I don't want this thread to be viewed as a thread where people are just **** about how things used to be, but rather one that educates the newer members on what the forum used to be and figure out how the forum can give everyone what they need.
On the topic of the "cliques:......you are not going to stop the grouping of people (i still refuse to call the cliques because i don't believe they are) because different people partake in different aspects of the site. The Vherf crew is inherently going to be closer because they spend 3 hours a week (minimum) shooting the *** and talking to each other essentially in person. The poker guys are going to be closer because they share another common hobby. The guys that talk via text are going to be closer because they have ongoing conversations. People that follow each other on facebook are going to be closer because they have a different view of the posters lives. The newbies are going to be closer because they bonded together as a group quickly. They guys that are a part of cfed are going to be a little closer because they have another commonality. It even existed when i got here....redneck mafia, A-Team, etc, etc.
Regardless I do agree that personal attacks need to stop. I have had a couple pointed out to me in PM and i get where the posters who felt attacked are coming from. Let people have their opinions even if you disagree with them and try to debate it without personal attacks.
hopefully i am not stepping over the line or misrepresenting the FOGs opinions but what i don't like to see is people leaving the site because of things that can be fixed very easily.
Ken, sorry I took this in a little different direction that your original post. I think it was in the same spirit though. The inside joke stuff is a symptom of the clique behavior that is happening.
You didn't do that at all, you enhanced the discussion greatly. To be honest, I originally was going to write something about how superficial I felt the forum had gotten, but I thought that was caused by the inside jokes and that the deeper meanings were hidden. That's probably part of it, there is a depth of relationship that still forms and that's become more hidden. But there used to be a depth of discussion as well that's sorely lacking, and I think there can only be two causes:
1) No one cares enough about cigars
2) Everyone is afraid to offend
If you fall into category 1, that you don't care enough or are not into it enough to discuss/debate, then I don't get why you're here. But maybe it's not that you don't care, but you feel like you don't know enough and you'll be attacked for some n00bish sounding opinion. I really hope not. Jump in the deep end, guys, say dumb@ss things, and more importantly make points from a perspective others have long forgotten or never had.
If people fall into category 2, though, and I'm afraid they do, and I hate that Kuzi and Maduro do because if we lose those guys in these debates then we've lost input of huge value, then something needs to change. We're all brothers here, but frankly it's unlikely that someone gives a **** about you personally enough to attack you, so realize they're attacking a concept or defending their own. There's nothing personal in cigars but the experience. Everything else is interesting debate.
Ken,
What i feel this is shifting to is that some of the FOGs feel the "cigar" conversations aren't a part of the forum anymore and miss that aspect. Aren't some of these conversations happening in the Ratings and Review area? I ask because being here for a year, that to me is the area where hard core discussion and debate about tobacco happens. Discussion about specific cigars and their characteristics happens, industry trends, things like that tend to pop up there more than the general area.
based on a couple of PM convos that i have going this is where the FOGs think the newbs (and even some FOGs) are getting "lost" We see the general area as a general area to have some fun and meet other BOTLs. Make relationships around the basic hobby of cigars. Bring up topics that are loosely based around the hobby. Welcome new members with open arms. Arrange Herfs, vherfs, poker, social outings, and in general just shoot the ***. Apparently this was not always the intent of the General subforum.
If the general forum goes back to hard core conversation about cigars, i think you lose what the general forum is now because there will be no other place on the site for that type of interaction. The non-cigar forum is not a place that i like to go because of how hostile that place can get. i don't think i am alone in that feeling. Trades/bombing area is just that. The rest of the forums would be dedicated to hard core cigar topics. So where are the posters that are here daily (if not secondly) to go if that is not the intent of the area? Is it just as easy as either creating a separate subforum for everything that the general forum is used for now so that the General area can be cigar specific? Do you let the general area stay the way it is, but turn the ratings and review area into a cigar discussion zone including ratings and reviews?
I don't want this thread to be viewed as a thread where people are just **** about how things used to be, but rather one that educates the newer members on what the forum used to be and figure out how the forum can give everyone what they need.
On the topic of the "cliques:......you are not going to stop the grouping of people (i still refuse to call the cliques because i don't believe they are) because different people partake in different aspects of the site. The Vherf crew is inherently going to be closer because they spend 3 hours a week (minimum) shooting the *** and talking to each other essentially in person. The poker guys are going to be closer because they share another common hobby. The guys that talk via text are going to be closer because they have ongoing conversations. People that follow each other on facebook are going to be closer because they have a different view of the posters lives. The newbies are going to be closer because they bonded together as a group quickly. They guys that are a part of cfed are going to be a little closer because they have another commonality. It even existed when i got here....redneck mafia, A-Team, etc, etc.
Regardless I do agree that personal attacks need to stop. I have had a couple pointed out to me in PM and i get where the posters who felt attacked are coming from. Let people have their opinions even if you disagree with them and try to debate it without personal attacks.
hopefully i am not stepping over the line or misrepresenting the FOGs opinions but what i don't like to see is people leaving the site because of things that can be fixed very easily.
+1 That's exactly how I took the general area to mean. I don't generally look for discussion on cigars themselves, and that's why I usually stay out of the ratings and reveiws.
Everyone here should be here for the love of cigars. It is the one common factor that brought us together. You do not have to be obsessed or the most knowledgeable or even smoke everyday. Heck I can't tell you the last time I smoked a cigar. There should be some desire to learn, acquire, contribute, and participate at some level. There are no set rules or requirements but if you aren't here because of cigars why bother? The other talk aside from cigars is great and an added bonus. I really enjoy the social aspect of cigars and discussions that are non cigar related are fun. But at the core of it all cigars brought us together.
Brianetz1, first I wanted to say I like your thoughts on this and you're not stepping over any line man, great post. However ...
brianetz1:
What i feel this is shifting to is that some of the FOGs feel the "cigar" conversations aren't a part of the forum anymore and miss that aspect. Aren't some of these conversations happening in the Ratings and Review area? I ask because being here for a year, that to me is the area where hard core discussion and debate about tobacco happens. Discussion about specific cigars and their characteristics happens, industry trends, things like that tend to pop up there more than the general area.
I mean another long timer can correct me if I'm wrong here but the general area has always been a mixed bag. The only thing we didn't like was when people started threads that were totally unrelated to cigars or the hobby.
brianetz1:
based on a couple of PM convos
Here is a problem to me. Why are these convos happening in PMs? That's the intentional exclusion of people. I mean there are things that can and should be discussed in PMs but it seems like the same thing being discussed on this thread is being discussed in PMs. I don't know I just think that's fueling the issue.
brianetz1:
On the topic of the "cliques:......you are not going to stop the grouping of people (i still refuse to call the cliques because i don't believe they are) because different people partake in different aspects of the site. The Vherf crew is inherently going to be closer because they spend 3 hours a week (minimum) shooting the *** and talking to each other essentially in person. The poker guys are going to be closer because they share another common hobby. The guys that talk via text are going to be closer because they have ongoing conversations. People that follow each other on facebook are going to be closer because they have a different view of the posters lives. The newbies are going to be closer because they bonded together as a group quickly. They guys that are a part of cfed are going to be a little closer because they have another commonality. It even existed when i got here....redneck mafia, A-Team, etc, etc.fixed very easily.
You're are absolutely correct on that you're not going to stop the grouping, hell when had groups that were tighter than others when I first started on here and there were 10 of us lol. Maybe it was happening then and I didn't see it but I didn't think our inside jokes became the topic of conversation like they are now. They were just jokes thrown back and forth they weren't necessary to understand the conversation, aside from the universal BOTL, B&M etc. What I know didn't exist was what I've seen and what kuzi and I experienced which is one or more of these groups trying to police the forum to all share the same philosophy. They don't want the type of debate I talked about so they use PMs or whatever to ostracize those that do. That's what I'm calling a clique. There are going to be groups everywhere in life no problem with that. There isn't even a problem with what I'm talking about this isn't a school or work where we all have to be here. If the group is deciding that this is what they want the forum to be and they're going to run off those that are challenging that, there's no problem there. Its just different than what people are saying is happening here.
Are kuzi and I the only ones that have been on the receiving end of this?
Somewhat related, but I was curious. I've seen reference to FOGs a few times. Who are the FOGs? Is it everyone who joined before X date? In this thread alone there are people that joined in every year from 2008 to 2013, so where's the line? I did take a hiatus for about a year and a half or so, was there some divide that happened while I was away that I am unaware of? Obviously I notice quite a few of the regulars from before I slacked off were no longer here, but even when I was active for the first three years or so, people would fall of the face of the earth, so I figured that their absence was just the normaly type of people leaving, only accumulated over a year and a half. Is there some divide between the FOGs and newbies?
Somewhat related, but I was curious. I've seen reference to FOGs a few times. Who are the FOGs? Is it everyone who joined before X date? In this thread alone there are people that joined in every year from 2008 to 2013, so where's the line? I did take a hiatus for about a year and a half or so, was there some divide that happened while I was away that I am unaware of? Obviously I notice quite a few of the regulars from before I slacked off were no longer here, but even when I was active for the first three years or so, people would fall of the face of the earth, so I figured that their absence was just the normaly type of people leaving, only accumulated over a year and a half. Is there some divide between the FOGs and newbies?
Not sure you can put a date on it but I think the divide is highlighted when a FOG says something like - This forum used to be so great, but then new guys joined and they don't behave like I think they should so,........lately,........ the forum sucks. LOL
Here is a problem to me. Why are these convos happening in PMs? That's the intentional exclusion of people. I mean there are things that can and should be discussed in PMs but it seems like the same thing being discussed on this thread is being discussed in PMs. I don't know I just think that's fueling the issue.
Because i wanted to get a trusted FOG who is involved in this convo's take on something outside of this conversation to make sure i was reading things correctly. It turns out that I wasn't. Sometimes things like that come up. There are always going to be things that people will talk personally about that they won't bring up in a group setting.
i can't answer your last question because personally i have never had that happen to me, but then again, i don't get involved in hard core cigar discussions like that because i have only been into the hobby side of things for a year.
Somewhat related, but I was curious. I've seen reference to FOGs a few times. Who are the FOGs? Is it everyone who joined before X date? In this thread alone there are people that joined in every year from 2008 to 2013, so where's the line? I did take a hiatus for about a year and a half or so, was there some divide that happened while I was away that I am unaware of? Obviously I notice quite a few of the regulars from before I slacked off were no longer here, but even when I was active for the first three years or so, people would fall of the face of the earth, so I figured that their absence was just the normaly type of people leaving, only accumulated over a year and a half. Is there some divide between the FOGs and newbies?
FOG is a commonly used term in online communities that i have always known that lovingly translates to Fat Old Guys. Generally it is forum veterans who have been around through different transitions of the online community. I am a FOG at several different message boards so i use that term in the most loving way possible and NEVER in a negative way.
I'd love more debate on these forums. I personally do a hell of a lot more reading than I do posting always have probably always will. But I must say I'm definitely seeing a change in the forums now and aside from the everyone agreeing with everyone else on everything there is a ton of fluff posts that add no value to the forum, I'm sorry and I'm not trying to call anyone in particular out but when you're at over a 1,000 posts and you've been here a month or two I can't imagine most of it has value. I'm not trying to say that everything I post has value but I'm not in every thread adding a comment.
...... But there used to be a depth of discussion as well that's sorely lacking, and I think there can only be two causes:
1) No one cares enough about cigars
2) Everyone is afraid to offend
As to #1 Speaking only for myself. I will join some discussions/debates, but I won't contribute to some debates. For example, I will not debate you on the merits of spice, pepper, floral etc. I just don't feel like I'd be doing myself or anyone any favors by pretending to understand my own palate. Will I ever understand my own palate? Maybe, but I'm happy just to pick out cigars that I like and build on that experience. Other newbs are better at expressing their tastes but not me. And much of the discussion on cigars by some vets is over my head so I'm not going to comment when you guys are talking about news of the high profile personalities in the cigar business or CCs or boutique, rare and/or expensive cigars that I haven't had any experience with. I'll be content just to read along. And I have learned that some comments are sure to be misinterpreted like I hope to try xyz cigar someday because some of you will think I'm begging to be bombed. But I'm not afraid to ask noob questions because I really want answers. And when I have and opinion I want to share on something, then I'll chime in.
As for #2. I don't want to offend. I'm pretty sure I have offended at least a few. I don't always type JK or LOL after every joke attempt or sarcastic thing I write just to be sure you know I'm (JK) just kidding. To me that's like always laughing too hard at my own jokes. I am a bit concerned that I may offend. I have held back from saying certain things at certain times. Maybe it's not me though. Maybe folks are easier to offend these days compared to years ago when the ccom was wonderful. Before all us new guys came and ruined it.
Comments
I think the fun and games aspect keeps it interesting while there is still a ton of great information and knowledge to go along with it. If we were all stuck in the same place together for any length of time smoking cigars and discussing life, not everyone would get along. You walk to the other side of the room and start a discussion with someone else. Just my opinion
There are a couple of people on here that when posting I have no idea what they are talking about. And as I said when I joined this forum (so long ago) I mentioned that the abbreviations drove me crazy and I felt like a lurker. Like BORK, I thought you were talking about "it is futile to resist" and it never made any sense. But this thread brings with it a lot of explanations and that is a good thing.
We all know, every single one of us, that being bombed, and the feigned fear and shock is all a joke and that the attempts to describe the damage is equally put on. H#ll, I loved being bombed. It makes my day and I feel good. I get the same good feeling when I send a "BOMB" to someone else. But, I have some real life experience with real bombs and, well, ya just never know. Not to worry though, my doctor has me on some new drugs and I feel much better now.
Felt this way for a while now.
Like Maduro, Vulchor, & Kuzi, I really enjoy the debates. Also, I think very much like these 3 and others, I don't change my opinion to a more popular one if I think the popular one is wrong. We've had our ups & downs here, but from the "fun & games" to the "down & dirty political discussions", I usually enjoy it all. Just don't expect me to believe some nonsense I know not to be true just because your favorite FOX truth-spinner or PMSNBC personality face says so.
Uh-oh, I'm thread jacking again.........
Seriously, I enjoy you guys and the opportunity to discuss cigars, and so many other things.
Thanks to all who participate, at whatever level.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
So i see every topic appropriate. everything fits.... its what makes this place this place. I agree I might be getting a little out of hand... (because I like to party) but this place is so much fun... its hard to not be wild.
it is what it is .... its an internet forum.
Aj
And shoot, just because someone sends a PM doesn't mean they have to post it! Give it a day or three. I can't always get on to check; and I rarely get messages, but when I get on the forum, it's usually one of the first things I do.
And, yes, insider language can turn away outsiders and even alienate those on the fringe even more. But I'm not sure anything will change or get rid of it.
Now, if someone wants to debate something, I say bring it on...in some cases. Depends on the discussion and if we're really trying to learn or are just two guys set in our opinions and nothing's going to change our minds. That's pointless. And I've seen a bunch of it lately.
Disengage. That's all I can say.
As for what I want; like has been said, this is like the neighborhood bar where I come to hang out. Sometimes I feel like I'm Fraser Crane around a bunch of Norms and Cliffs, though.
BTW, I always liked Norm and Cliff much more than Fraser!
I like Oliva and Quesada (including Regius) a lot. I will smoke anything, though.
make any sense?
I think a lot of you are missing, kuzi, alien, vulchor and my(a few others agreed as well) point. If you don't like the debate you don't have to respond or get involved and that's perfectly fine. Our point or mine any way is that this forum has become opposed to it and there are people that actively make sure it does not happen.
Back when I was really active, I could post I really like Nicaraguan tobacco. Kuzi would say I don't. There would be a couple clear jokes thrown back and forth about each others palette being comparable to a goats, with hahas or lols in there so EVERYONE knew it was a joke. Then we'd debate the merits of Nicarguan vs. Honduran tobacco. Why tobacco grown in this country or region provides this kind of flavor for me and I like that etc. The point was never to change his mind or mine your tastes are subjective. The point is we'd both engage each other and we'd both learn from it be it from research we did to support our own point or learning directly from the other person.
Life got in the way for me and I dropped off for a long time only popping in occasionally. So then a few months back I popped in for a week or so actually trying to be active again. I tried to engage a couple debates and the response I got was several PMs telling me I was a d!ck or how this person learned so much from my old posts but now I was just being an assh0le and they've lost respect for me, etc, etc. Those of you that said they learned from me or enjoyed my posts go back and look at those posts, THEY ALWAYS CAME OUT OF SOME DEBATE. I'm not going to deny that I'm argumentative or an assh0le. But I never make personal attacks, its a debate. There have been unfortunate instances were an ill-conceived joke or the way I worded something may have come across as that. I remove those posts and apologize when I realize that.
Now I'm not afraid to offend someone. If someone was to tell me they don't think Cameroon is a sweeter tobacco, I'd have no problem telling them they are wrong and if they truly believe that they need to do some more tasting because they still have a lot to learn. Yes flavor is subjective but some things are pretty standard. My point there was that I'm not afraid to offend you and tell you that you are wrong in a debate. If that makes me an assh0le to some, so be it.
The whole point here is that is the type of debate that many of us engaged in daily on these old forums. Kuzi and I have both experienced the backlash of trying to have this kind of debate in the forums today. To call us names or ostracize us for being confrontational while you CONFRONT us and personally attack us in PMs, well ...
I personally don't understand the point in someone saying, "man I really like Nicaraguan tobacco" and everyone just posting "me too" or "I prefer Honduran". But if that floats your boat cool and if the vast majority of this forum does not like or want debate like I outlined above that's cool too. I can go else where and find debate and have. I continue to pop back in here because of the friends I've made that continue to reside here but I can be limited to just posting on kuzi's reviews and things like that. It doesn't hurt my feelings any. I just want those of you that think this forum is welcoming and not cliquish etc to see what is actually going on to not only newbie's but original members. I have zero doubt in my mind that many of the people that posted a few times and disappeared received similar PMs to what I received.
Yes there is no moderation on this forum and we've always self policed but that was for breaking general rules or personal attacks or things like that not because we didn't like what people said.
Again guys forums are made by the members if this is the kind of forum you guys want great. I just chimed in because to me it seemed like many of you didn't think this is what it is or what is going on.
Ken, sorry I took this in a little different direction that your original post. I think it was in the same spirit though. The inside joke stuff is a symptom of the clique behavior that is happening. Some aren't intentionally trying to exclude people based on how they act or think but some actively are ... so by your definition you've got a clique going on.
I know I've said it repeatedly but this isn't an attack on you guys just my opinion. I don't like and don't want to participate much if this is what it is but that doesn't make it wrong. As someone else said, its an internet forum it is what it is ...
1) No one cares enough about cigars
2) Everyone is afraid to offend
If you fall into category 1, that you don't care enough or are not into it enough to discuss/debate, then I don't get why you're here. But maybe it's not that you don't care, but you feel like you don't know enough and you'll be attacked for some n00bish sounding opinion. I really hope not. Jump in the deep end, guys, say dumb@ss things, and more importantly make points from a perspective others have long forgotten or never had.
If people fall into category 2, though, and I'm afraid they do, and I hate that Kuzi and Maduro do because if we lose those guys in these debates then we've lost input of huge value, then something needs to change. We're all brothers here, but frankly it's unlikely that someone gives a **** about you personally enough to attack you, so realize they're attacking a concept or defending their own. There's nothing personal in cigars but the experience. Everything else is interesting debate.
But this is where I think the strength of this forum lies... It offers something for everyone, regardless of your experience/knowledge level. It has a good balance between fun and horsing around and information/discussion/debate. The problem probably comes when us noobs get a bit carried away with the fun and horsing around posts, and they seem like they're crowding out the info/discussion.
Personally, I browse all the forums and read the posts to try to learn more about cigars. At this stage of the game, I'm more comfortable posting in the more light-hearted threads... but I'll get there.
What i feel this is shifting to is that some of the FOGs feel the "cigar" conversations aren't a part of the forum anymore and miss that aspect. Aren't some of these conversations happening in the Ratings and Review area? I ask because being here for a year, that to me is the area where hard core discussion and debate about tobacco happens. Discussion about specific cigars and their characteristics happens, industry trends, things like that tend to pop up there more than the general area.
based on a couple of PM convos that i have going this is where the FOGs think the newbs (and even some FOGs) are getting "lost" We see the general area as a general area to have some fun and meet other BOTLs. Make relationships around the basic hobby of cigars. Bring up topics that are loosely based around the hobby. Welcome new members with open arms. Arrange Herfs, vherfs, poker, social outings, and in general just shoot the ***. Apparently this was not always the intent of the General subforum.
If the general forum goes back to hard core conversation about cigars, i think you lose what the general forum is now because there will be no other place on the site for that type of interaction. The non-cigar forum is not a place that i like to go because of how hostile that place can get. i don't think i am alone in that feeling. Trades/bombing area is just that. The rest of the forums would be dedicated to hard core cigar topics. So where are the posters that are here daily (if not secondly) to go if that is not the intent of the area? Is it just as easy as either creating a separate subforum for everything that the general forum is used for now so that the General area can be cigar specific? Do you let the general area stay the way it is, but turn the ratings and review area into a cigar discussion zone including ratings and reviews?
I don't want this thread to be viewed as a thread where people are just **** about how things used to be, but rather one that educates the newer members on what the forum used to be and figure out how the forum can give everyone what they need.
On the topic of the "cliques:......you are not going to stop the grouping of people (i still refuse to call the cliques because i don't believe they are) because different people partake in different aspects of the site. The Vherf crew is inherently going to be closer because they spend 3 hours a week (minimum) shooting the *** and talking to each other essentially in person. The poker guys are going to be closer because they share another common hobby. The guys that talk via text are going to be closer because they have ongoing conversations. People that follow each other on facebook are going to be closer because they have a different view of the posters lives. The newbies are going to be closer because they bonded together as a group quickly. They guys that are a part of cfed are going to be a little closer because they have another commonality. It even existed when i got here....redneck mafia, A-Team, etc, etc.
Regardless I do agree that personal attacks need to stop. I have had a couple pointed out to me in PM and i get where the posters who felt attacked are coming from. Let people have their opinions even if you disagree with them and try to debate it without personal attacks.
hopefully i am not stepping over the line or misrepresenting the FOGs opinions but what i don't like to see is people leaving the site because of things that can be fixed very easily.
Here is a problem to me. Why are these convos happening in PMs? That's the intentional exclusion of people. I mean there are things that can and should be discussed in PMs but it seems like the same thing being discussed on this thread is being discussed in PMs. I don't know I just think that's fueling the issue.
You're are absolutely correct on that you're not going to stop the grouping, hell when had groups that were tighter than others when I first started on here and there were 10 of us lol. Maybe it was happening then and I didn't see it but I didn't think our inside jokes became the topic of conversation like they are now. They were just jokes thrown back and forth they weren't necessary to understand the conversation, aside from the universal BOTL, B&M etc.
What I know didn't exist was what I've seen and what kuzi and I experienced which is one or more of these groups trying to police the forum to all share the same philosophy. They don't want the type of debate I talked about so they use PMs or whatever to ostracize those that do. That's what I'm calling a clique. There are going to be groups everywhere in life no problem with that. There isn't even a problem with what I'm talking about this isn't a school or work where we all have to be here. If the group is deciding that this is what they want the forum to be and they're going to run off those that are challenging that, there's no problem there. Its just different than what people are saying is happening here.
Are kuzi and I the only ones that have been on the receiving end of this?
i can't answer your last question because personally i have never had that happen to me, but then again, i don't get involved in hard core cigar discussions like that because i have only been into the hobby side of things for a year.
As to #1 Speaking only for myself. I will join some discussions/debates, but I won't contribute to some debates. For example, I will not debate you on the merits of spice, pepper, floral etc. I just don't feel like I'd be doing myself or anyone any favors by pretending to understand my own palate. Will I ever understand my own palate? Maybe, but I'm happy just to pick out cigars that I like and build on that experience. Other newbs are better at expressing their tastes but not me. And much of the discussion on cigars by some vets is over my head so I'm not going to comment when you guys are talking about news of the high profile personalities in the cigar business or CCs or boutique, rare and/or expensive cigars that I haven't had any experience with. I'll be content just to read along. And I have learned that some comments are sure to be misinterpreted like I hope to try xyz cigar someday because some of you will think I'm begging to be bombed. But I'm not afraid to ask noob questions because I really want answers. And when I have and opinion I want to share on something, then I'll chime in.
As for #2. I don't want to offend. I'm pretty sure I have offended at least a few. I don't always type JK or LOL after every joke attempt or sarcastic thing I write just to be sure you know I'm (JK) just kidding. To me that's like always laughing too hard at my own jokes. I am a bit concerned that I may offend. I have held back from saying certain things at certain times. Maybe it's not me though. Maybe folks are easier to offend these days compared to years ago when the ccom was wonderful. Before all us new guys came and ruined it.