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  • TRayBTRayB Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    @CalvinAndHobo I mean I said that if you made IDs free and easy then go ahead and ask for ID. It's that simple. All the other stuff doesn't matter.

    By the way we already have a national ID. It's called a social security card. I'm not navigating in uncharted waters here.

    I don't know why having an election day window instead of one single day in November makes such a big difference to some people.

    Non-citizens can get a SS card and be eligible for benefits. Do you believe non-citizens (in any country), whether there legally or not, should be allowed to vote in that country's elections?

    But what if they made them different, some how, some way. Ignore the arrows.

    Have you ever actually shown your SS card to anyone for proof of ID, or have you just written your SS# on application forms, etc.? I have never shown mine.

    If you knew me, you would know my wife is in charge of that stuff. Without her, I would forget to put on underwear in the morning.

    Deflection.

    The question was mainly rhetorical. Beyond the fact that most people (as you imply) do not even know where their physical SS card is, they aren't really to be used identification (there's no photo, after all), but are solely to be used for transactions between you and the government (political parties are not part of the government, and have no right to demand SS #s).

    The question still remains, should non-citizens (in any country), whether there legally or not, be allowed to vote in that country's elections?

    Nope, not deflection. Pretty sure I had to bring it when I signed up for TSA Pre-Check. Pretty sure it's also still in the safe where it was when it was put back. The comment on if you knew me was a direct shot at you because you seem to take part in about two types of threads. Contests and politics. Try the vHerf once in a while and get to actually know people.

    You didn't have to explain the shot at me, I am not THAT naive. LOL.

    So, of the number of people who regularly post on the forum, how many are on the vHerf regularly and frequently? And how many have never been on? I may have stated at some other time (but if not, here it is:), I am not comfortable in that type of venue, it is not in my nature. It's not that I don't want to get to know any of you, it is that I feel I do not present myself clearly, and do have trouble following conversations and responding without adequate time to formulate and articulate my thoughts, especially in a group setting. I'd be happy to get together with any one of you for a smoke, drink, lunch, whatever, but the vHerf is not a setting I would enjoy. At least, I think I wouldn't.

  • silvermousesilvermouse Posts: 20,801 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Same here. I tried the vherf once when only Chris was on and had to quit after a minute or two.

  • VisionVision Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TRayB said:

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @Vision said:

    @TRayB said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    @CalvinAndHobo I mean I said that if you made IDs free and easy then go ahead and ask for ID. It's that simple. All the other stuff doesn't matter.

    By the way we already have a national ID. It's called a social security card. I'm not navigating in uncharted waters here.

    I don't know why having an election day window instead of one single day in November makes such a big difference to some people.

    Non-citizens can get a SS card and be eligible for benefits. Do you believe non-citizens (in any country), whether there legally or not, should be allowed to vote in that country's elections?

    But what if they made them different, some how, some way. Ignore the arrows.

    Have you ever actually shown your SS card to anyone for proof of ID, or have you just written your SS# on application forms, etc.? I have never shown mine.

    If you knew me, you would know my wife is in charge of that stuff. Without her, I would forget to put on underwear in the morning.

    Deflection.

    The question was mainly rhetorical. Beyond the fact that most people (as you imply) do not even know where their physical SS card is, they aren't really to be used identification (there's no photo, after all), but are solely to be used for transactions between you and the government (political parties are not part of the government, and have no right to demand SS #s).

    The question still remains, should non-citizens (in any country), whether there legally or not, be allowed to vote in that country's elections?

    Nope, not deflection. Pretty sure I had to bring it when I signed up for TSA Pre-Check. Pretty sure it's also still in the safe where it was when it was put back. The comment on if you knew me was a direct shot at you because you seem to take part in about two types of threads. Contests and politics. Try the vHerf once in a while and get to actually know people.

    You didn't have to explain the shot at me, I am not THAT naive. LOL.

    So, of the number of people who regularly post on the forum, how many are on the vHerf regularly and frequently? And how many have never been on? I may have stated at some other time (but if not, here it is:), I am not comfortable in that type of venue, it is not in my nature. It's not that I don't want to get to know any of you, it is that I feel I do not present myself clearly, and do have trouble following conversations and responding without adequate time to formulate and articulate my thoughts, especially in a group setting. I'd be happy to get together with any one of you for a smoke, drink, lunch, whatever, but the vHerf is not a setting I would enjoy. At least, I think I wouldn't.

    Also....

    Deflection

  • OutdoorsSmoke_21191OutdoorsSmoke_21191 Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TRayB & @silvermouse i can appreciate your sentiments. However, imho, the Vherf is not the place where we come together to air disagreements about politics. In my experience it is a mellow atmosphere where multi dimensional conversation takes place. I would not suggest that differing opinions and perspectives don’t ever come into play. They do, but mostly civilly. Personally, I think the two of you bring ample value to the forum and would enjoy getting to know each of you better on the Vherf. That’s my simple and personal opinion.

    A good cigar and whiskey solve most problems.

  • OutdoorsSmoke_21191OutdoorsSmoke_21191 Posts: 2,446 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a little tidbit on history of mail in voting for those that care to read.

    https://www.history.com/news/vote-by-mail-soldiers-war

    A good cigar and whiskey solve most problems.

  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20

    @TRayB said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @TRayB said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    @d_blades you can't not get a real ID here. I tried.

    @TRayB yes I did have to show it. To get my first driver's license (I had to bring my birth certificate too). everyone prolly did, I guess. As a matter of fact, a driver's license is a confirmation that you have 2 other forms of id. If people could use it as id, then they wouldn't not know where it is.

    ** I guess the question was rhetorical because you knew the answer was yes?**

    @Bob_Luken the simplest way is to not have id.

    Why are people against free ID cards?

    The question wasn't rhetorical. I don't recall having to show my SS card to get a driver's license, but that was 41 years ago. Maybe I just don't remember. Beyond that, I don't remember any other time having to show my physical SS card for anything. Just provide the number, which is memorized.

    I am not against free ID cards. If the .gov is going to require ID, then it should be provided free of charge.

    So, you haven't answered my question, now thrice repeated: Should non-citizens (in any country), whether there legally or not, be allowed to vote in that country's elections? That is the crux of the ID question.

    Oh, I thought you said that the question was rhetorical above. You literally said it was rhetorical.

    I don't answer stupid questions. It's a fuçking dumb question.

    Tell you what, I'll answer your question after you answer this one: do you think it's bad for first graders to get shot by madmen with their mom's AR??

    The rhetorical question I was referring to was the question to Pete about having to show a SS card, not whether non-citizens should be allowed to vote.

    Yes, I do think it is bad for first grader's to get shot by anyone, with any gun.

    Your turn. It is not a dumb question. As I said, it is the crux of the ID argument. (You know it, I know it, and everyone here on this forum knows it.)

    Of course non-citizens should not be allowed to vote. I don't think that anyone has ever said that they should. That's a stupid rhetorical question.

    Do you want to require IDs? Then give people IDs for free. It's not that hard. Until you do that, I'm against the IDS.

    And if you're saying that forcing people to show ID to vote is going to solve the problem of non-citizens voting, then I say you're so cute for how naive you are. Non-citizens will just show fake IDs or steal IDs or borrow IDs of people who don't want to vote.

    Just like banning all guns in the US is not going to solve first graders getting shot. Thanks for making my point for me. Have a nice day.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20

    By the way, show me the actual examples of voter fraud in the recent elections. I can show you examples of first graders getting shot.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's the problem you're trying to solve by the way

    https://www.cato.org/blog/shedding-light-incidence-illegal-noncitizen-voting

    Some excerpts for you

    So is the percentage of noncitizens who vote, or register to vote, nearer to one percent or to zero? I’ve already summarized some of the reasons to think zero is the closer of the two, including database checks, surveys of election administrators, statistical tests (do voting totals track the citizen-only voting-age population, or do they come in unaccountably higher?), the scanty harvest of investigations and prosecution, audits in various states, and so forth.

    And

    Much more might be added along the same lines. In Ohio, the secretary of state announced in 2017 that a total of 821 non-citizens were found to have registered in the state over the previous five years, 126 of whom actually voted. That’s among an electorate of roughly 8 million. (Seven years later, a new probe has found another 137 registrations.) The recent Republican House witness cited numbers from suburban DC’s immigrant-heavy Fairfax County, Virginia, in which, he said, 278 noncitizen registrants had been identified of whom 117 had actually voted.

    And

    Ironically, noncitizens in America show very little propensity to register or vote even in the handful of progressive jurisdictions that have given them the franchise in races for local offices, such as city council and school board. In the 2019 San Francisco school board race a grand total of two noncitizens are reported to have participated, and the numbers aren’t that much higher among municipalities in Vermont and Maryland (62 voters in Burlington, Vermont; 72 in Takoma Park, Maryland). If any sampling of noncitizens should be favorably disposed toward use of the ballot box it should be that in Washington, DC, which abounds in educated persons born overseas who have lived in the US for many years—think World Bank economists. But Kim reports that of the roughly 15 percent of DC’s 700,000 residents who are foreign-born, only around 500 noncitizens had registered to vote as of Monday, according to data provided by the District of Columbia Board of Elections.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ironically, noncitizens in America show very little propensity to register or vote even in the handful of progressive jurisdictions that have given them the franchise in races for local offices, such as city council and school board. In the 2019 San Francisco school board race a grand total of two noncitizens are reported to have participated, and the numbers aren’t that much higher among municipalities in Vermont and Maryland (62 voters in Burlington, Vermont; 72 in Takoma Park, Maryland). If any sampling of noncitizens should be favorably disposed toward use of the ballot box it should be that in Washington, DC, which abounds in educated persons born overseas who have lived in the US for many years—think World Bank economists. But Kim reports that of the roughly 15 percent of DC’s 700,000 residents who are foreign-born, only around 500 noncitizens had registered to vote as of Monday, according to data provided by the District of Columbia Board of Elections.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:
    Ironically, noncitizens in America show very little propensity to register or vote even in the handful of progressive jurisdictions that have given them the franchise in races for local offices, such as city council and school board. In the 2019 San Francisco school board race a grand total of two noncitizens are reported to have participated, and the numbers aren’t that much higher among municipalities in Vermont and Maryland (62 voters in Burlington, Vermont; 72 in Takoma Park, Maryland). If any sampling of noncitizens should be favorably disposed toward use of the ballot box it should be that in Washington, DC, which abounds in educated persons born overseas who have lived in the US for many years—think World Bank economists. But Kim reports that of the roughly 15 percent of DC’s 700,000 residents who are foreign-born, only around 500 noncitizens had registered to vote as of Monday, according to data provided by the District of Columbia Board of Elections.

    Source?

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    You made the claim...prove it.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    You made the claim...prove it.

    You can't. You know it's true. ADMIT IT.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • dirtdudedirtdude Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Try and use a credible source.

    A little dirt never hurt
  • CalvinAndHoboCalvinAndHobo Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Jokes aside, we're on the same page about poor people being discouraged from voting @VegasFrank . I would like all the other stuff I mentioned such as a federal holiday and a 24 hour polling location for those reasons. Any substantial reform to the corrupt systems currently in place will require poor people to join the fight.

  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    You made the claim...prove it.

    You can't. You know it's true. ADMIT IT.

    Quoting ourselves now? How sophisticated! I just gave you a ton of primary research presented in articles from research institutions that are held in high regard in the subject matter by that community and by society at large.

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dirtdude said:
    Try and use a credible source.

    Sorry the infowars site seems to be down right now. Something about a Sandy Hook judgment and Alex Jones owing them a shitload of money.

    Ap News is widely considered by both the extremes and the center as the most unbiased or centric news source available. Believe what you want to believe Randy. I actually don't care!

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • VegasFrankVegasFrank Posts: 18,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stubble said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    You made the claim...prove it.

    You can't. You know it's true. ADMIT IT.

    And you won't try because it doesn't actually exist lol. Way to use the old " I'm rubber and you're glue" defense! 😂

    Disclaimer:  All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
  • StubbleStubble Posts: 8,986 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:

    @Stubble said:

    @VegasFrank said:
    Bottom line: this "problem" is essentially zero percent of the problem. I still think that the real problem that trumpettes are trying to solve is to discourage poor citizens from voting.

    Bullchit.

    Numbers don't lie bro.

    Prove it.

    I just did in the link above. You're gonna have to read it.

    No. Prove it.

    Why don't you prove it then? Where's your evidence? You have none. Fake news old news not news

    You made the claim...prove it.

    You can't. You know it's true. ADMIT IT.

    Quoting ourselves now? How sophisticated! I just gave you a ton of primary research presented in articles from research institutions that are held in high regard in the subject matter by that community and by society at large.

    I'm the only one worth quoting, remember? All other crap is just misinformation.

    Hey, you gonna eat the rest of that corndog?
  • VisionVision Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dirtdude said:
    Try and use a credible source.

    Yeah @VegasFrank ! I didn't see Fox News or the Daily Wire on there! If it's not on my Right Wing Extremist website it's fake news!! Yeah! Yeah!

  • IndustMechIndustMech Posts: 4,931 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @silvermouse said:
    Same here. I tried the vherf once when only Chris was on and had to quit after a minute or two.

    I was also on, it was nice to see you. It's fine to join and be quiet.

    I know, You're a big dog and I'm on the list.
    Let's eat, GrandMa.  /  Let's eat GrandMa.  --  Punctuation saves lives

    It'll be fine once the swelling goes down.

  • CalvinAndHoboCalvinAndHobo Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @IndustMech said:

    @silvermouse said:
    Same here. I tried the vherf once when only Chris was on and had to quit after a minute or two.

    I was also on, it was nice to see you. It's fine to join and be quiet.

    I believe there's also a way to join without turning your camera on, if it's a visual thing. Nothing wrong with joining and just letting everyone else talk like John said.

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