Political Discussions

IndustMech

@CalvinAndHobo said:

@TRayB said:

@CalvinAndHobo said:
I remain amazed at the amount of people who think that just a couple people can fix all the various problems of the country. Be it Trump/Musk or Biden/Whoever, whatever team a person is on.

I am personally of the opinion that nothing significant is getting changed at this point by either team without a full scale, top to bottom revolution.

Are you talking about a shooting revolution? I hope it never comes to that.

I mean I don't think anything is actually going to happen, but yeah I think a shooting revolution or a societal collapse of some other kind is going to be needed to change anything significantly, though I also hope I'm wrong.

I read somewhere there could be a street fight.

Stubble

@IndustMech said:

@CalvinAndHobo said:

@TRayB said:

@CalvinAndHobo said:
I remain amazed at the amount of people who think that just a couple people can fix all the various problems of the country. Be it Trump/Musk or Biden/Whoever, whatever team a person is on.

I am personally of the opinion that nothing significant is getting changed at this point by either team without a full scale, top to bottom revolution.

Are you talking about a shooting revolution? I hope it never comes to that.

I mean I don't think anything is actually going to happen, but yeah I think a shooting revolution or a societal collapse of some other kind is going to be needed to change anything significantly, though I also hope I'm wrong.

I read somewhere there could be a street fight.

With actual weapons?

VegasFrank

@TRayB said:

@VegasFrank said:

@TRayB said:

@VegasFrank said:
Lol Todd you're a hoot! You justify one thing with another, and ironically you do so under a false premise yourself while taking the time to respond while intentionally avoiding a simple request.

Despite this, you have answered the question completely. The answer to the question is that it wouldn't be okay if it were reversed, but it's justified based on other dissimilar things that have happened in the other direction.

Copy.

And the real governors of this society, the ones actually pulling the strings, are the oligarchs who exercise undue influence on the entire process. The Kochs, sorroses, musks, bezoses, and buffets of the world, legalized through citizens united and codified through their weopanizing of the utility, real estate, investment, and mass media organizations that they own, are the ones who really control The government. They do it through influence. They influence the politicians to set the policy and the influence the quote-unquote Shadow government, the people who actually execute the offices of the government, to do the things they say. Then they pit the Jimmy's in the Joe's, the common people, against each other to solidify that power .

They do so in such an effective manner that a guy in a t-shirt and a ball cap can stand in front of the president inside the oval office and talk about the things he's going to do to drain a swamp that he himself helped to fill, and all to a rousing cheer.

Thanks for playing buddy! Love you!

Jeez Francis, I'm a hoot? This is the hootiest thing I've read in a while, especially everything that comes after the word "Copy" . LOL. I's not hooty in content, though. I agree with it almost 100%.

But first, you essentially asked a "gotcha" question (intentionally or not, I won't speculate), a hypothetical question at that, that however answered could be used to bash the answerer.
Yes, it is the same as Biden bringing in Soros = Why are you letting it happen then?; No, it isn't the same = Hypocrite!! ;
No Reply = Sheeple! Blind Follower!

You call it a loaded question, but it really isn't. If that's what you think of me and my "honest question," then I've earned that reputation with you and I'll own that.

I did say I wasn't speculating on your intentions with the question. The question itself comes pre-loaded.

By the way, the fourth answer would have been "I would have been mad in your scenario and I'm okay with it here because xyz..." Yes hypocrisy, but honest hypocrisy. I am an honest hypocrite in many areas of my values. Everyone is. The "honest" part of my honest query isn't to debate your values, which is futile, but to gain insight into the minds of people with double standards, which we all have.

The problem I'm having with your 4th possible answer is, it seems the basis for the hypocrisy charges depends on the person doing the act, and not the act itself. To me, it's as if any act is only made good or bad (therefore the basis for hypocrisy) by the person performing it. A sort of moral relativity regarding actions, like nothing in itself is either good or bad, only bad people make acts bad.

In your scenario, if Biden brought in some advisor/czar/whatever with the purpose of finding and eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse, and reducing the size and scope of government, etc, etc., I would have been (cautiously) behind it. IMO, the act itself is good, so long as it is done lawfully. Then there is not hypocrisy, and the question becomes "Do you believe the act is good or bad?"

Then you go on to to dismiss not the hypothetical, but actual question of who was in control during the Biden administration, as if it doesn't matter, while likening the Trump/Musk situation to the downfall of Democracy in America.

False. As the leader of a 236 person organization, I delegate many things to many people myself. I never once mentioned any doomsday scenarios that you elude to. You assume those of me, again, because of the reputation that I have with you. Again. I've earned that with you and must own it.

Sorry if I misread or misinterpreted the part about the swamp, and Musk helping to fill it.
Please though, you don't have to keep mentioning your reputation with me, and owning it, etc. Anything that happened in the past (only one thing I can think of) is behind me, and your reputation in my eyes is for speaking honestly what you believe. I often hesitate to do the same.

But the hootiest thing really is this: You go on to explain to Trump supporters what the problem with government is. Holy Christ Frank, we have known what it is for decades, and have tried to do something about it for just as long.

We have? Explain! I don't know what those somethings are.

This is where you confuse me a little bit again. You went into some detail about the oligarchy, which is one of the problems. Some others are, the development of the Administrative State, and the ever-increasing, unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy, the gradual but almost complete abdication by Congress over its power to write laws, with notable Supreme Court decisions in Chevron and a much earlier case which name I can't remember right now, and also the abdication of any serious oversight by Congress, the so-called Regulatory Capture of Federal Agencies by big business, also including the revolving door system of leadership among those agencies and the businesses they are to regulate, the same for Big Pharma, and the Military Industrial Complex, who bring us continual Wars and Rumors of War, and the 17th Amendment taking away the States appointment of Senators in favor of direct elections.

We have tried to vote for Republicans who say they are going to be fiscally responsible, who are going to weed out corruption, who are going to reduce the size of government, and what have we gotten? Nothing but more waste, more fraud, more bloat, and more interference. We finally have a then-candidate, now-President who ran on dismantling the bureaucracy, reducing waste, and giving the government back to the people. Now that he is in office and is proceeding to do that, the people whom you describe are fighting tooth-and-nail to shut him down.

People fight presidents tooth-and-nail no matter who they are. Did "you" (your side) fight Biden tooth and nail? Was THAT okay?

Of course it was, to you, and based on your values. I'm cool with that.

I am cool with people working against any incumbent administration too.

You surround the words shadow government with quote marks, as if it may not exist, after explaining what it is and what it does. I already know what it is and what it does.

Great! I didn't say anything about existence. What i take exception to is the connotation that career civil servants run rogue and counter to the wishes of the senior elected and appointed officials and executives. Is there a guy out there somewhere who slow rolls something? Yes, and there is a percentage of those. But God damn it Todd. Don't you dare question the efficacy of those of us who hold office to serve the public.

I don't believe I said or claimed anything about career civil servants or everyday working people within the government (exception: USPS ). Here, you are reading into it based on your own perceptions, I think. If I did, please show me, I'll apologize. I thank you for your service, sincerely.

I think that the average American citizen thinks that we don't do much and collect fat paychecks, and then when we don't like a president, we say fukkit, we ain't doing that. Maybe it happens in tiny, insignificant pockets. But the bottom line is that I'm every agency that I've ever seen (maybe not the post office, lol), we take the business of the government of the United States of America murha fukkkkin seriously.

I think you've also referenced the Deep State in the same way, as if that doesn't really exist, yet you have described what we have known as the Deep State for decades. Welcome to the fvckin club, Frank.

Lol no. I have said that the Clinton's aren't killing anyone, but that's only because they aren't.

Ironically, you claim that Trump and Musk are part of the oligarchy/shadow/deep state (O/S/DS) all-controlling power, so tell me, why do they want Trump dead? If he is doing what you suggest, he would be a boon to the oligarchy.

I didn't realize that the oligarchy wants trump dead. As a matter of fact, I disagree with that notion. Which members want this? Why?

Ironically, the last two Presidents who challenged the government and tried to reign in its excesses and abuses both wound up with extra holes in them, one in the head, the other in the chest.

Are you referring to Reagan? He sorta has seven years of presidency after that guy took a shot at him. Maybe you're referring to someone else.

I am referring to Reagan. I don't buy the story of a crazy, love-struck guy trying to won Jodi Foster's heart.

Trump also come this close to an extra hole in the head, and that wasn't the only attempt.

Let me give you insight into my hypocrisy. I hate conspiracy theories, but the one conspiracy that I believe in is that the two assassination attempts were publicity stunts. The only thing that gives me pause is the dead guy.

Everyone has their own favorite conspiracy theories, except they aren't theories if one believes them.

There will be more, I'm sure. Continuing with the irony, most of the people who deny the existence of the O/S/DS, would cheer if Trump were assassinated.

Okay, so I would cheer. Sorry, I'm not a perfect person.

Nor am I. But my point was, since you brought up the oligarchy, etc., why would you cheer the death of the only President in the last 40 years who has taken serious, consequential actions to curtail it? Simply because you hate him as a person? I don't get it.

Love you too, Brother

Thanks for hearing me out.

I should have never taught you the trick with the damn greater sign thing. 😂

It appears that we're talking past each other on a bunch of points.

The only thing that is left unsettled I think is the point about the shadow government people. If they are not the career civil servants and they are not the people nominated by the president and confirmed by the Senate and/or congressional comittee, then who are they?

Oh, and the reasons I would cheer are because I don't think he's doing or will do what you say in your statement, and because he puts in peril those I have served with/am serving with. I can't and won't try to convince you on those points.

TRayB

Yeah, that trick has its limitations and drawbacks, especially with long posts that will continue to be quoted. I noticed that as soon as I posted.

Stubble

silvermouse

silvermouse

Dow falls 600 points as inflation and tariff fears hit Main Street
Trump plans to impose 25% tariffs on autos, chips and pharmaceuticals
Trump acknowledges ‘inflation is back’ but blames Biden

Amos_Umwhat

I think inflation has been back for quite some time now.

Tariff's have historically not been such a great idea, but since we've spent the last 50 years or so shipping our jobs and technology overseas, how do we solve the inequity?

Did y'all notice how Trump has made it so cold? It's only 45F here in Tampa this morning.

silvermouse

@Amos_Umwhat said:

...

Did y'all notice how Trump has made it so cold? It's only 45F here in Tampa this morning.

I'm. I think that was Biden's fault, Trump just inherited it. Ditto the asteroids

Bob_Luken

Before anyone gets any wrong ideas, this meme is not specifically applicable to anybody here on this forum. I just know some people to whom it does apply so, it was funny to me.

silvermouse

Back atcha, dude. Not you, Bob Luken, those OTHER people.

silvermouse

We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You're the other people too
Found a way to get to you .

Do you think that I'm crazy?
Out of my mind?
Do you think that I creep in the night
And sleep in a phone booth?

Lemme take a minute and tell you my plan
Lemme take a minute and tell who I am
If it doesn't show
Think you better know
I'm another person

Better look around before you say you don't care
Shut your ****' mouth about the length of my hair
How would you survive
If you were alive
**** little person?

We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You're the other people too
Found a way to get to you
See upcoming rock shows
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We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You're the other people too
Found a way to get to you

Do you think that I love you .
Stupid and blind?
Do you think that I dream through the night
Of holding you near me?

Lemme take a minute and tell you my plan
Lemme take a minute and tell who I am
If it doesn't show
Think you better know
I'm another person