@d_blades said:
WTF, how can we be losing to Sweden?
Well, lots of folks aren't going to like the answer, but I think that they didn't do the mandatory shut downs that many others did.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Sweden didn't shutdown or force masks or basically do anything other than to tell their people to "Be Smart" - no, not literally but effectively. It would be interesting to see the numbers to see if the restrictions here helped us, hurt us or made any difference at all in the illness or fatality percentages.
I don't believe the pandemic was handled well by any of the politicians from either party. Personally I have no issue wearing a mask if a business requires it and I want to visit that business. I know a number of businesses do and a number ask you to wear masks but don't require them. One place I went a few weeks ago said they were done with the masks and that folks were welcome to wear them if they wanted to wear masks. Note I experienced all of these - not advocating for any of them - and these all happened here in NC before the governor canceled his order requiring masks. He was hoping to eliminate most restrictions by June 1st as of a few weeks ago. There are some that I have met here who are suggesting that the reason he eliminated them early was so that the Carolina Hurricanes could have a full house at their playoff game last night. I don't know the capacity but I know they had over 12000 in attendance at the arena in Raleigh.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
Can they do that? Wow! All joking aside, I think it's time for voting in America to include a "none of the above" option on the ballot. Maybe the parties would have to find competent candidates by the third or fourth round of elections. Might be too much to hope for.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Can they do that? Wow! All joking aside, I think it's time for voting in America to include a "none of the above" option on the ballot. Maybe the parties would have to find competent candidates by the third or fourth round of elections. Might be too much to hope for.
I don't think that they will be able to do it. It would take quite a few things for it to happen. But the fact that 5 large counties (Largest geographical area) have voted in favor of it should make politicians nervous.
These counties went through the entire process of getting signatures, getting it in the ballots and voting for it.
That is quite a feat for one county, let alone 5 counties.
Do I hope it happens? Yes and no.
Yes, cause Oregon is a $h!thole and the dictatorial govt in Oregon needs a wake up call. The ruling class of Portland, Salem and Eugene can outvote the entire state on anything, so rule without contention.
No, cause the seceding part of Oregon isn't part of Oregon, where I live.
So moving when I retire will definitely be on my agenda.
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Can they do that? Wow! All joking aside, I think it's time for voting in America to include a "none of the above" option on the ballot. Maybe the parties would have to find competent candidates by the third or fourth round of elections. Might be too much to hope for.
We have that option in Nevada. Nothing changed.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
From Flatbed cigars:
"NOTE: ....... PayPal shut down our account (and froze the money in it)! I personally spoke with
the PayPal Legal Department in 2010. They cleared us to operate, selling premium cigars, and have
been taking their % payments for over a decade! Without notice, no letter, no call, no text, not even
the courtesy of a form email, they closed the account...leaving our loyal PayPal customers high and
dry. For that I do apologize to all of you. PayPal apparently cares not. However...no Fear my friends!
We still accept: VISA, MASTER CARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS AND DISCOVERY. Rumor is by
years end PayPal will have closed all tobacco accounts. Another cigar foe! BIG TECH strikes again...
It's better we don't give them our money anyway. A cigar foe...is no friend of ours! Let's reward
the "traditional" merchant banks that have always been there to help small businesses.
@silvermouse said:
From Flatbed cigars:
"NOTE: ....... PayPal shut down our account (and froze the money in it)! I personally spoke with
the PayPal Legal Department in 2010. They cleared us to operate, selling premium cigars, and have
been taking their % payments for over a decade! Without notice, no letter, no call, no text, not even
the courtesy of a form email, they closed the account...leaving our loyal PayPal customers high and
dry. For that I do apologize to all of you. PayPal apparently cares not. However...no Fear my friends!
We still accept: VISA, MASTER CARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS AND DISCOVERY. Rumor is by
years end PayPal will have closed all tobacco accounts. Another cigar foe! BIG TECH strikes again...
It's better we don't give them our money anyway. A cigar foe...is no friend of ours! Let's reward
the "traditional" merchant banks that have always been there to help small businesses.
Cheers!
Paul
SHOP NOW
Happened to me years ago. No warning, no recourse, kept my bucks for nigh on a year. No explanation. Refused to discuss. Just boom.
Long story I'd rather not remember.
Eventually had to get an offshore bank.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
So a business can seize your money and freeze your account without due process, because of a LEGAL product you sell??
This country is headed down the drain so fast, it's hard to keep up anymore.
We've been circling the drain for decades, now we're in the vortex headed down.
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Trapped in the People's Communist Republic of Massachusetts.
@ShawnOL said:
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
@ShawnOL said:
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
If it were a small bank that only handled local business, I'd agree with you.
What if it was VISA telling you that you couldn't make any tobacco or alcohol purchases with your VISA card?
Youtube, Fakebook, Ebay, Google, Paypal, Venmo and others that are ingrained so heavily into society, overstep their bounds when they do things like this, because it impacts society as a whole, not just individuals.
A local bank, bakery or what ever, does not.
Just to be clear, I do not support businesses discriminating at all.
And the law determined that those businesses violate laws when they do that, so why wouldn't Paypal?
The case was decided in favor of the plaintiffs; the cake shop was ordered not only to provide cakes to same-sex marriages, but to "change its company policies, provide 'comprehensive staff training' regarding public accommodations discrimination, and provide quarterly reports for the next two years regarding steps it has taken to come into compliance and whether it has turned away any prospective customers."
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
@ShawnOL said:
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
If it were a small bank that only handled local business, I'd agree with you.
What if it was VISA telling you that you couldn't make any tobacco or alcohol purchases with your VISA card?
Youtube, Fakebook, Ebay, Google, Paypal, Venmo and others that are ingrained so heavily into society, overstep their bounds when they do things like this, because it impacts society as a whole, not just individuals.
A local bank, bakery or what ever, does not.
Just to be clear, I do not support businesses discriminating at all.
And the law determined that those businesses violate laws when they do that, so why wouldn't Paypal?
The case was decided in favor of the plaintiffs; the cake shop was ordered not only to provide cakes to same-sex marriages, but to "change its company policies, provide 'comprehensive staff training' regarding public accommodations discrimination, and provide quarterly reports for the next two years regarding steps it has taken to come into compliance and whether it has turned away any prospective customers."
I don't agree with this personally, but that's fine. In my opinion, If Youtube/Facebook/Ebay yatta yatta wants to do something stupid or immoral (but not illegal), it's not the governments job to tell them otherwise. If it's actually stupid, they'll lose revenue.
It's easy to say that businesses should be able to run without the government getting in their way, but if I can't also say that when they want to do something I disagree with, then I don't actually believe it.
I fully support the right of someone to start a business doing something like selling signs saying that 9/11 was a good thing, or whatever other distasteful things someone can think of. It makes me angry to imagine that, but it's what makes America actually free, instead of just having an illusion of freedom. If someone else disagrees, that's probably more reasonable than my stance, but it's inarguably an authoritarian stance, and not a conservative stance (which is fine).
It's a double edged sword.
On the one hand, someone could ask a business to do something for them and it might be out of their realm to do the job. So then the person sues them for discrimination. And the law will probably back them up.
Not because the business doesn't want to do the job, but because they don't have the qualifications to do the job.
While that is different, than choosing not to do the job, it is still possibly something that can go to court.
There was a time when a business could reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. But the courts have set a precedent. And since it did, then all businesses should follow that court ruling.
10 years ago, I'd have sided with the bakery.
Today, the courts have decided, so it's the law and what small businesses have to abide by, so should large corporations
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
@0patience said:
It's a double edged sword.
On the one hand, someone could ask a business to do something for them and it might be out of their realm to do the job. So then the person sues them for discrimination. And the law will probably back them up.
Not because the business doesn't want to do the job, but because they don't have the qualifications to do the job.
While that is different, than choosing not to do the job, it is still possibly something that can go to court.
There was a time when a business could reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. But the courts have set a precedent. And since it did, then all businesses should follow that court ruling.
10 years ago, I'd have sided with the bakery.
Today, the courts have decided, so it's the law and what small businesses have to abide by, so should large corporations
Discrimination is quite hard to prove in court (for now), As long as someone isn't blatantly obvious about it. Tobacco users are also a protected class in only some states, and not federally. Their headquarters are in California, one of the states that does not include tobacco users as a protected class.
If I'm telling a customer I won't sell them something because of (insert bigoted reason), then yeah I'll lose that law suit, but if I give them the stink eye and say no, that wouldn't win in court. Sounds like the second scenario is what Paypal is doing, which isn't illegal unless someone can get their hands on some internal emails. Even then, I don't think it's illegal in California (I'm not a lawyer obviously). And I don't support making new laws to change that.
Again though, that's just my belief, and not many people agree with me about things like this, where the conservative and republican positions are not the same.
@ShawnOL said:
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
If it were a small bank that only handled local business, I'd agree with you.
What if it was VISA telling you that you couldn't make any tobacco or alcohol purchases with your VISA card?
Youtube, Fakebook, Ebay, Google, Paypal, Venmo and others that are ingrained so heavily into society, overstep their bounds when they do things like this, because it impacts society as a whole, not just individuals.
A local bank, bakery or what ever, does not.
Just to be clear, I do not support businesses discriminating at all.
And the law determined that those businesses violate laws when they do that, so why wouldn't Paypal?
The case was decided in favor of the plaintiffs; the cake shop was ordered not only to provide cakes to same-sex marriages, but to "change its company policies, provide 'comprehensive staff training' regarding public accommodations discrimination, and provide quarterly reports for the next two years regarding steps it has taken to come into compliance and whether it has turned away any prospective customers."
YouTube and google are the same company. eBay, PayPal, and venmo are also all the same firm. All of the talk of gay cakes and tobacco money are meaningless. I'm with Calvin, let them do as they please and let free market forces work the kinks out.
Problem with that theory is that premium cigars are not big enough of a market for any big firm to care about. That means we are s*** out of luck. Kind of sucks, but if we stick by our core principles, this is how it should be.
The big problem with the concept is when you Don't have a choice about the company you do business with. What about insurance companies and or employers that won't pay for birth control pills, abortion in any case whatsoever, r@pe or otherwise? Most people don't have a choice about the company they do insurance business with. Their employer has a carrier.
Are you going to quit your job? That's kind of a pain in the ass and seems a little unconstitutional. My place of employment is going to decide my morals? Fück that.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
@ShawnOL said:
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
If it were a small bank that only handled local business, I'd agree with you.
What if it was VISA telling you that you couldn't make any tobacco or alcohol purchases with your VISA card?
Youtube, Fakebook, Ebay, Google, Paypal, Venmo and others that are ingrained so heavily into society, overstep their bounds when they do things like this, because it impacts society as a whole, not just individuals.
A local bank, bakery or what ever, does not.
Just to be clear, I do not support businesses discriminating at all.
And the law determined that those businesses violate laws when they do that, so why wouldn't Paypal?
The case was decided in favor of the plaintiffs; the cake shop was ordered not only to provide cakes to same-sex marriages, but to "change its company policies, provide 'comprehensive staff training' regarding public accommodations discrimination, and provide quarterly reports for the next two years regarding steps it has taken to come into compliance and whether it has turned away any prospective customers."
YouTube and google are the same company. eBay, PayPal, and venmo are also all the same firm. All of the talk of gay cakes and tobacco money are meaningless. I'm with Calvin, let them do as they please and let free market forces work the kinks out.
Problem with that theory is that premium cigars are not big enough of a market for any big firm to care about. That means we are s*** out of luck. Kind of sucks, but if we stick by our core principles, this is how it should be.
The big problem with the concept is when you Don't have a choice about the company you do business with. What about insurance companies and or employers that won't pay for birth control pills, abortion in any case whatsoever, r@pe or otherwise? Most people don't have a choice about the company they do insurance business with. Their employer has a carrier.
Are you going to quit your job? That's kind of a pain in the ass and seems a little unconstitutional. My place of employment is going to decide my morals? Fück that.
Personally speak, I’m pro choice, pro gay marriage, yet still pro gay cake refusal. It’s a very odd combination.
I do think there would be a market for an insurance company that covered birth control or something like that if everyone else refused to, which is why everyone else doesn’t refuse to.
We should get @Rhamlin to create a cryptocurrency that tobacco sellers accept . Yes, it would be a niche market, but someone could create a very nice life for themselves if they were the only ones offering it.
@0patience said:
It's a double edged sword.
On the one hand, someone could ask a business to do something for them and it might be out of their realm to do the job. So then the person sues them for discrimination. And the law will probably back them up.
Not because the business doesn't want to do the job, but because they don't have the qualifications to do the job.
While that is different, than choosing not to do the job, it is still possibly something that can go to court.
There was a time when a business could reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. But the courts have set a precedent. And since it did, then all businesses should follow that court ruling.
10 years ago, I'd have sided with the bakery.
Today, the courts have decided, so it's the law and what small businesses have to abide by, so should large corporations
It's unconstitutional despite what the courts ruled. The ability to live your religious beliefs, must extend beyond the doors of the Church. Otherwise you have no freedom of religion. Besides plenty of court ruling have granted non Christians rights in the workplace, pray time for Muslims, beards and hair for Sikhs etc.
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Also definitely agree with @d_blades points, remember a few years ago? California forbade Christian students from their morning prayer, even just the 'moment of silence' ,and then set aside time for the Muslim students to pray several times a day "because it's their culture". Freakin' hypocrites!
And lastly, @VegasFrank, like it or not, the workplace has been deciding peoples morals since the 1980's when mandatory "random" (it rarely is) drug testing starting probing into peoples private lives. High at work? Bust 'em. What they did Friday night, NOBODY'S BUSINESS. Just my rarely humble opinion.
Y'all know I had to dispute Frank on something, he was making so much sense!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Nice try @Amos_Umwhat 😂😂😂 but I didn't say that I have a problem with it. Then again, I have options in life. If you're a cashier at hobby lobby, though, you can't get the pill because the owners are religious zealots who want to legislate the personal lives of those who work for them. Fine, but if that's the only job you can get, hobby lobby could be the unwitting contributor to another abortion, which I find to be fittingly hilarious 😆😆😆😆
Drug testing is slightly different in my opinion because that is detecting a law breaking act (even marijuana, which is still federally illegal regardless of state law). Many employers will also shitcan you if you show up in the police blotter for a DUI or beating your wife. Same-same.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
Comments
WTF, how can we be losing to Sweden?
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Well, lots of folks aren't going to like the answer, but I think that they didn't do the mandatory shut downs that many others did.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://sweden.se/business/10-world-shaping-swedish-companies/&ved=2ahUKEwi5w5WAztPwAhVDmeAKHZWXAUAQFjAKegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw25FfRfuJdVkd81ZxfZauyI&cshid=1621354060298
Sweden didn't shutdown or force masks or basically do anything other than to tell their people to "Be Smart" - no, not literally but effectively. It would be interesting to see the numbers to see if the restrictions here helped us, hurt us or made any difference at all in the illness or fatality percentages.
I don't believe the pandemic was handled well by any of the politicians from either party. Personally I have no issue wearing a mask if a business requires it and I want to visit that business. I know a number of businesses do and a number ask you to wear masks but don't require them. One place I went a few weeks ago said they were done with the masks and that folks were welcome to wear them if they wanted to wear masks. Note I experienced all of these - not advocating for any of them - and these all happened here in NC before the governor canceled his order requiring masks. He was hoping to eliminate most restrictions by June 1st as of a few weeks ago. There are some that I have met here who are suggesting that the reason he eliminated them early was so that the Carolina Hurricanes could have a full house at their playoff game last night. I don't know the capacity but I know they had over 12000 in attendance at the arena in Raleigh.
Even Greta is dunking on Kerry:
Auctioneer currently has 42 Rocky Patel auctions running.
Inconceivable!
And wouldn't you know, where I live would still be the $h!thole known as Oregon.
Or it will probably get renamed Califoregon.
Oregon Counties Vote to Secede Into Idaho
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Can they do that? Wow! All joking aside, I think it's time for voting in America to include a "none of the above" option on the ballot. Maybe the parties would have to find competent candidates by the third or fourth round of elections. Might be too much to hope for.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
I don't think that they will be able to do it. It would take quite a few things for it to happen. But the fact that 5 large counties (Largest geographical area) have voted in favor of it should make politicians nervous.
These counties went through the entire process of getting signatures, getting it in the ballots and voting for it.
That is quite a feat for one county, let alone 5 counties.
Do I hope it happens? Yes and no.
Yes, cause Oregon is a $h!thole and the dictatorial govt in Oregon needs a wake up call. The ruling class of Portland, Salem and Eugene can outvote the entire state on anything, so rule without contention.
No, cause the seceding part of Oregon isn't part of Oregon, where I live.
So moving when I retire will definitely be on my agenda.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
We have that option in Nevada. Nothing changed.
Oregon quickly turned into Illinois.
MOW badge received.
Secession! did someone say secession? As a self respecting Southerner, I got a lil bit excited.
From Flatbed cigars:
"NOTE: ....... PayPal shut down our account (and froze the money in it)! I personally spoke with
the PayPal Legal Department in 2010. They cleared us to operate, selling premium cigars, and have
been taking their % payments for over a decade! Without notice, no letter, no call, no text, not even
the courtesy of a form email, they closed the account...leaving our loyal PayPal customers high and
dry. For that I do apologize to all of you. PayPal apparently cares not. However...no Fear my friends!
We still accept: VISA, MASTER CARD, AMERICAN EXPRESS AND DISCOVERY. Rumor is by
years end PayPal will have closed all tobacco accounts. Another cigar foe! BIG TECH strikes again...
It's better we don't give them our money anyway. A cigar foe...is no friend of ours! Let's reward
the "traditional" merchant banks that have always been there to help small businesses.
Cheers!
Paul
SHOP NOW
Happened to me years ago. No warning, no recourse, kept my bucks for nigh on a year. No explanation. Refused to discuss. Just boom.
Long story I'd rather not remember.
Eventually had to get an offshore bank.
So a business can seize your money and freeze your account without due process, because of a LEGAL product you sell??
This country is headed down the drain so fast, it's hard to keep up anymore.
We've been circling the drain for decades, now we're in the vortex headed down.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
I've heard the PayPal horror stories of seizures for years, never trusted them much.
Now they want to enforce reporting of cryptocurrency transfers of $10,000 or more to the IRS.
We need better anti-discrimination laws for legal products. It should be a felony offense to deny services to any business because of the products they sell, if they're legal to buy and sell.
Trapped in the People's Communist Republic of Massachusetts.
Do you support a bakery's right to refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay couple? Or a custom t shirt company refusing to make a t shirt that says "all cops are b@$tards" for example? Using the government to tell businesses what to do is not a conservative belief. The conservative solution would be to allow the market to decide it's a bad decision, such as cigar smokers not using them any more. Just because a company does something stupid, shouldn't give you the right to order them to do the opposite. Otherwise, you would just be an authoritarian.
Ooooohhhhh I love a good conundrum!
If it were a small bank that only handled local business, I'd agree with you.
What if it was VISA telling you that you couldn't make any tobacco or alcohol purchases with your VISA card?
Youtube, Fakebook, Ebay, Google, Paypal, Venmo and others that are ingrained so heavily into society, overstep their bounds when they do things like this, because it impacts society as a whole, not just individuals.
A local bank, bakery or what ever, does not.
Just to be clear, I do not support businesses discriminating at all.
And the law determined that those businesses violate laws when they do that, so why wouldn't Paypal?
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
I don't agree with this personally, but that's fine. In my opinion, If Youtube/Facebook/Ebay yatta yatta wants to do something stupid or immoral (but not illegal), it's not the governments job to tell them otherwise. If it's actually stupid, they'll lose revenue.
It's easy to say that businesses should be able to run without the government getting in their way, but if I can't also say that when they want to do something I disagree with, then I don't actually believe it.
I fully support the right of someone to start a business doing something like selling signs saying that 9/11 was a good thing, or whatever other distasteful things someone can think of. It makes me angry to imagine that, but it's what makes America actually free, instead of just having an illusion of freedom. If someone else disagrees, that's probably more reasonable than my stance, but it's inarguably an authoritarian stance, and not a conservative stance (which is fine).
It's a double edged sword.
On the one hand, someone could ask a business to do something for them and it might be out of their realm to do the job. So then the person sues them for discrimination. And the law will probably back them up.
Not because the business doesn't want to do the job, but because they don't have the qualifications to do the job.
While that is different, than choosing not to do the job, it is still possibly something that can go to court.
There was a time when a business could reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. But the courts have set a precedent. And since it did, then all businesses should follow that court ruling.
10 years ago, I'd have sided with the bakery.
Today, the courts have decided, so it's the law and what small businesses have to abide by, so should large corporations
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Discrimination is quite hard to prove in court (for now), As long as someone isn't blatantly obvious about it. Tobacco users are also a protected class in only some states, and not federally. Their headquarters are in California, one of the states that does not include tobacco users as a protected class.
If I'm telling a customer I won't sell them something because of (insert bigoted reason), then yeah I'll lose that law suit, but if I give them the stink eye and say no, that wouldn't win in court. Sounds like the second scenario is what Paypal is doing, which isn't illegal unless someone can get their hands on some internal emails. Even then, I don't think it's illegal in California (I'm not a lawyer obviously). And I don't support making new laws to change that.
Again though, that's just my belief, and not many people agree with me about things like this, where the conservative and republican positions are not the same.
YouTube and google are the same company. eBay, PayPal, and venmo are also all the same firm. All of the talk of gay cakes and tobacco money are meaningless. I'm with Calvin, let them do as they please and let free market forces work the kinks out.
Problem with that theory is that premium cigars are not big enough of a market for any big firm to care about. That means we are s*** out of luck. Kind of sucks, but if we stick by our core principles, this is how it should be.
The big problem with the concept is when you Don't have a choice about the company you do business with. What about insurance companies and or employers that won't pay for birth control pills, abortion in any case whatsoever, r@pe or otherwise? Most people don't have a choice about the company they do insurance business with. Their employer has a carrier.
Are you going to quit your job? That's kind of a pain in the ass and seems a little unconstitutional. My place of employment is going to decide my morals? Fück that.
Personally speak, I’m pro choice, pro gay marriage, yet still pro gay cake refusal. It’s a very odd combination.
I do think there would be a market for an insurance company that covered birth control or something like that if everyone else refused to, which is why everyone else doesn’t refuse to.
We should get @Rhamlin to create a cryptocurrency that tobacco sellers accept
. Yes, it would be a niche market, but someone could create a very nice life for themselves if they were the only ones offering it.
It's unconstitutional despite what the courts ruled. The ability to live your religious beliefs, must extend beyond the doors of the Church. Otherwise you have no freedom of religion. Besides plenty of court ruling have granted non Christians rights in the workplace, pray time for Muslims, beards and hair for Sikhs etc.
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Very interesting conversation. Not much to add beyond kudos to @CalvinAndHobo and @0patience.
Also definitely agree with @d_blades points, remember a few years ago? California forbade Christian students from their morning prayer, even just the 'moment of silence' ,and then set aside time for the Muslim students to pray several times a day "because it's their culture". Freakin' hypocrites!
And lastly, @VegasFrank, like it or not, the workplace has been deciding peoples morals since the 1980's when mandatory "random" (it rarely is) drug testing starting probing into peoples private lives. High at work? Bust 'em. What they did Friday night, NOBODY'S BUSINESS. Just my rarely humble opinion.
Y'all know I had to dispute Frank on something, he was making so much sense!
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Nice try @Amos_Umwhat 😂😂😂 but I didn't say that I have a problem with it. Then again, I have options in life. If you're a cashier at hobby lobby, though, you can't get the pill because the owners are religious zealots who want to legislate the personal lives of those who work for them. Fine, but if that's the only job you can get, hobby lobby could be the unwitting contributor to another abortion, which I find to be fittingly hilarious 😆😆😆😆
Drug testing is slightly different in my opinion because that is detecting a law breaking act (even marijuana, which is still federally illegal regardless of state law). Many employers will also shitcan you if you show up in the police blotter for a DUI or beating your wife. Same-same.