@VegasFrank , sorry to hear about the abuse you experienced as a child. That obviously has scarred you. No child should have to live with abuse. Spanking, however, is not what you're describing. You're describing abuse. No one here advocates abuse, I'm sure.
Interestingly we had this discussion in a church Men's group I belong to. One of the members told that he deciphered the admonition to "Spare the rod and spoil the child" to mean that one should spare the rod, and actively spoil the child. As in, you should spoil your children.
Some of us disagreed, some agreed. As the discussion progressed, I asked those who agreed that no form of physical punishment should ever be administered if they had boys, girls, or both? Turns out, the ones who think "never", all had girls only. The fathers of boys all said that there were times when nothing else worked. Spanking, not beating, not extreme, not violence.
For the record, spanking should be a last resort, used only when all other remedies have failed. And, it should NEVER be beating like Frank describes.
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Lol it didn't scar me for life. Made me who I am. "I want my pain I need my pain," as Captain Kirk once said.
I have boys and girls and I think that hitting them is abuse it should be illegal. I know you come from a different generation where it was acceptable. I know your peers do. That's fine. I'm not calling you a bad person or anything else.. I think society has evolved past spanking.
Let me ask you this. If an 8-ft man who outweighed you by 200 lb came up to you, calmly restrained you, laid hands on you, and proceeded to hit you or spank you 30 times or twice or whatever for doing something that he didn't like that you did, would he go to jail? Eff yeah he would, And you would be glad for it.
If someone hit you with a belt or a switch or a rod or the back of their hand or the front of their hand or their fist, and left raised fingerprints or worse, or didn't leave any marks on your body, would they go to jail? F yeah they would! And you would be glad for it.
So if it's illegal for someone to do something to an adult, why the fück would it be legal to do it to a child that you outweigh by 200 lb or 150 lb? It's a child abuse bro. Maybe it wasn't considered child abuse generation ago when I was a kid or when you were a kid, but it's child abuse. It's assault. It's battery.
And I'm not going to do it to my kids. If I ever saw someone smacking their kid around, I'd step in the middle. Maybe I'd be wrong That's cool, I've been wrong plenty of times in my life. Maybe it's because I was beaten when I was a kid. Maybe it's not. But it's assault brother...
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So now I'm trying to think about this and taking a more universal approach. I think spankings child abuse, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Am I right?
I'll give you a little background on myself so you know where I'm coming from. Yes I was beaten or abused several times as a kid. Maybe several times a year. There were many hundreds of more times a year when I was not abused but I was punished, either by the spanking or smacking that many of us grew up with, or a grounding or a restriction of some other type.
So when I was a child and it went too far with me, things would happen. My old man once punched me in the face and I lost a tooth and several more were loose. One time, I was repeatedly told not to put my fingers in the crack of the door by the hinges. It was a habit of mine when I was like three. As punishment, my father made me leave my hand in there and then slammed the door closed. He slammed it so hard that the screws popped off the middle and bottom hinges. I thought my fingers were chopped off! Lol. My mother would beat me with frying pans and belts and straps and sticks and her purse and whatever the hell else she could find in a completely out of control manner. One time she knocked me out with a cheap ass frying pan. One time when I was 11, I was running away from my stepfather who was trying to hit me. I jumped up onto my bed. He literally picked up the footboard, slammed it down, and one of the posts broke off. My bed awkwardly crumbled to the ground and he then beat me with that bedpost. Then he told me to fix the bed and if I didn't have it fixed, he'd hit me with it again.
But those were the abuse things. That's not what I'm talking about. I think everyone here can agree that is bullshít abuse. By the way, when I was a kid I would not have considered it abuse. It was just my normal reality. I grew up, left the house, and continued to have a relationship with them into my late 20s. It wasn't until my mother tried to hit my wife that I abandoned my family forever. That's when I figured out it was not normal, and I didn't have any kids yet at that time.
But for most of the rest of my childhood, I experienced pretty typical things for someone in my generation. My rules were a little more stringent than the rules of my friends, but they were essentially the same. I would get grounded for a report card that had anything less than an A on it. And I was grounded until the next report card. If I received detention for misbehavior, I would get spanked. It would usually involve me holding onto my footboard and my stepdad giving me lashes, mostly on the bare ass, with his 2-in thick leather belt. He was calm about it, and I didn't consider that abuse although I might now. As I grew up, The spankings subsided and the beatings intensified, although they got further apart.
I have been bent over a parent's knee while getting swatted on the butt through my clothes. I've been hit with a belt and a switch in a way that many of you probably have been. I've been smacked around in a way that many of you have been. I didn't consider any of this abuse at the time that it was happening. Hell, I didn't consider the frying pan abuse.
By the way, none of that punishment ever deterred me from doing anything ever. I never thought to myself, " if I get a detention, I'm going to get beat." I did what I did, which was mostly normal kid s***. Sometimes they would scream at me. Sometimes they would smack me around, and sometimes they would beat the living f*** out of me. Fine. Never a deterrent. Never once.
Now, I have three kids. One is a diagnosed autistic bipolar. Think that'll challenge your sanity? Bet your ass. One came from the foster system and grew up with an extreme amount of violence. She once threw a 42-in television down the stairs at me while I was walking up the stairs. She One time broke all of the windows on the first floor of my house. Do you think that spanking would prevent those things? I think that violence taught her violence. When she starts to get violent, I will physically restrain her. Yes. I will hold her arms and her legs and not let her be violent. I've taken a couple of really bad bites to the arm and chest lol, but I've kept her safe. But spanking isn't going to do anything to help curb her violent tendencies that her bio family taught her.
So after sharing all of my experiences, I can tell you that I've taught my children what they need to know without hitting them. I taught them to not run in the street or put their hand on the hot stove or put a ladder on top of the counter to climb on top of the refrigerator or to stay away from any one of the thousand situations, all while not hitting them.
So to the spanking crowd, I guess my question is in what situation would You theoretically spank a child for? What did they do? How did you spank them? How does that teach them not to do it? Is there a way to teach them to behave other than spanking them? Is it more, less or just as effective as the spanking?
Do you think that my kids are more or less likely to steal a car and go to jail riding and kill someone? Do you think they're more or less likely to take the gun out of my nightstand to go shoot up a school? Of course that would assume I have one in my nightstand which I don't but let's just say that I did.
For those of you who spank your kids, I don't want to tell you that you're doing it the wrong way. I don't know your situation. I don't know your background. I don't know your kids. I'm trying to take a universal approach here. But I don't know why you would want to physically hurt and dominate and intimidate someone you love. When I got spanked, I felt the same thing as when I got beaten. I felt, " she's mean. She hates me. I hate her." I wasn't savvy enough to distinguish between what was abused and what wasn't. It was all the same to me. Is that what your kids are thinking?
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And one more question for the group, and I will let this topic go forever if you want.
Spanking might work on a toddler. Spanking might work on some sort of preteen or tween kid. Granted. That toddler or that preteen, once they hit puberty, is going to be your size. Do you think spanking will be effective at that point? If that's the only tool in your toolbox, you're going to be very ill-equipped to deal with the problems of a teenager, say a 17-year-old. You won't be able to spank that 17-year-old. But if that's the only way you know how to punish a kid, how the f are you going to deal with it?
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Some examples from my experience. Mom would hit you with whatever was handy. But almost never to the point of abuse. Dad only ever used his hand, and probably never on my sisters. His point was that if you're spanking a child, the child should realize that they've driven you beyond the point of reasoning, but that's at least partly your own fault.
I've always thought that the majority of spankings a child receives should've occurred by age 3, and usually to prevent the child from hurting itself or someone else. My son seemed to require one about every 5 years, up to the age of 14, and it was only after all talk and reason and grounding and restricting and more talk and more reason had failed.
Some other instances, two friends of mine got married. She was a single mother, her 1st husband a professional child psychologist who believed as you do, that there's NO circumstance under which a child should be spanked. Her new husband was now living with her and a 9 year old boy who would beat his mother. He'd never been spanked. He would punch her in the stomach until she urinated blood, kick her shins, scream and punch her in the face, couple of broken noses there. Finally, after numerous attempts to curb this behavior, the new husband bent the boy over and beat his little azz. It worked.
Completely different situation. When a friend of mine was 8 his parents divorced, he ended up with Dad and the new Step-mom. Dad was an OTR trucker. Whenever he was out of town, step-mom would take out her frustrations on my friend. Over the course of about 18 months she broke his arm, his collarbone, a few ribs, several concussions, and partially blinded him in the left eye. When Dad returned he was told that the clumsy little fool fell down the stairs, again, and wanted to lie about it because he just didn't like her. Finally the step-moms mother called the birth mother. She came on Christmas morning, pounding on the door, came into the house and beat step-mom through several rooms and down the steps, took her son and left. "Best Christmas Ever", said my friend.
Too many cases of abuse out there. Too many people whose first action is to spank, which, in my opinion is abuse because they haven't even attempted to solve the problems by normal means. But, there are some people, some circumstance, where there has to be a bottom line, when reason has ultimately failed, when there is no other recourse, and those parents should not be punished by law for doing their duty.
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Thanks @Amos_Umwhat. Interesting experiences for sure. I am thinking, and I can't remember if I've ever swatted my kids' hand away from a hot stove or knife or something, or whether I've patted their bottoms to direct them away from the top of the staircase. Maybe, and I would hope I wouldn't have CPS knocking down my door or get placed into cuffs for doing so.
It's also true that a 3 and under doesn't have the power of language, and a pat on the bottom may effectively redirect. Cool. I'll call myself good with that if it doesn't hurt and it doesn't leave a mark.
The only thing that gives me pause is the "no other recourse" phrasing. There is probably other recourse, but I think that some parents...especially those who are I'll equipped to be parents, don't have a support system, and/or economically struggle (which puts more pressure/stress on them)...just don't know the other recourses or take shortcuts.
Good talk though...
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When I was a kid, many years ago, spanking wasn't considered abuse. I'm talking belts and switches, which I admit I required on a regular basis, were applied as needed in my preteen years. Never was I punched with a fist or intentionally harmed, although my Mom did accidently break my arm once. I also required a few from the principal in grade school,which was allowed.
Post edited by d_blades on
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Seems to me, when spanking declined, so did good behavior among kids. You didn't see as many young teens assaulting or robbing others. Spanking tended to keep kids in line. Disagree if you want to, most people's minds are already made up before the start of the conversation, anyway.
Trapped in the People's Communits Republic of Massachusetts.
The only thing that gives me pause is the "no other recourse" phrasing. There is probably other recourse, but I think that some parents...especially those who are I'll equipped to be parents, don't have a support system, and/or economically struggle (which puts more pressure/stress on them)...just don't know the other recourses or take shortcuts.
Good talk though...
I get your point, but consider the 9 year old I talked about above. His father has a doctorate in child psychology from a highly acclaimed university. And, all his efforts and methods did not work. What's the average person to do? Where's their recourse? Then, this child who's never once been on the receiving end of physical punishment, because "that would teach him to be violent", finally changes, only after experiencing first hand physical punishment. BTW, he's a good man today, very accomplished and well rounded.
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Wow. Guys, thanks for sharing your experiences. So much comes rushing to my mind as I read the last few posts. As a child my parent's discipline became abuse at points. I was an unruly one to be honest.
I remember the last time I spanked my son. He doesn't or he doesn't remember it like I do. He had just turned five and continued to cut up and disturb the class during the day. He would get kicked outta school, they would call and I'd have to go pick him up in the middle of his class day. I'd inevitability take him back to my work, Apple Computer, where he would spend the rest of the day with cool ppl and play on the computers in my lab. Not exactly punishment. I warned him very strongly, explaining his actions in class would not be tolerated. This happened a couple times... On that fateful day not long after my warnings, he pulled his pants down in class. I got the call. I went and got him. We went to my car, I opened the passenger door, threw his bag in the back, and said, "So you like pulling your pants down in school huh? Drop 'em!" I never spanked with a belt until that day, and like I said it would be his last spanking he'd ever get from me. I made him bare his azz and swatted his behind ONE time. It left a mark on his butt.... and his brain. He never cut up in class after that day. All further discipline was handled in non-physical manners.
I regret that one spanking. Very much so. But somewhere in my heart and mind, I understand that that most undesirable moment curbed, perhaps, a lifetime of disciplinary issues.
@ShawnOL - correlation doesn't equate to causation. The decline of the nuclear family and the fall of big religion also correlate. So does the rise of violence in media, and so does the number of internet users and avocado eaters. Which factor is it? You (nor the rest of us) just don't know for certain.
@silvermouse - maybe? I dunno. I think that the reason I never spanked my kids is because I was 32 when I had my first one. I was financially ready, mature, and in a stable, 7 year marriage. I experienced a lot of violence growing up, but I am not a violent person. It never appealed to me. It never actually crossed my mind to hit a child. I did swat my daughter on the butt once when she was 2. She was at the top of the staircase. It was a little swat through the diaper. It definitely didn't hurt her and she definitely couldn't even feel it on her skin. It was just a jolt to her momentum. She looked at me with these big sad eyes, like "why did you do that to me?" and I never ever did it again.
@Amos_Umwhat - I understand about the 9 year old in the story, but if he had done that to his wife instead of his kid, he would be a domestic abuser. If he'd have done it to a coworker, he'd be fired. If he'd have done it to a minority or gay person, he'd be charged with a hate crime. But he did it to his kid, so it's okay? I don't understand.
Edit - One additional point about the guy with the degree in your story, all the rules go out the window when it's your own family. Your emotionally invested and attached in those situations, and the conventions of wisdom, logic, training, and research don't apply when it's your own kid.
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Great question Tony. I fully realize that what I am saying is that my way is right and everybody else's way is wrong. I also totally understand that that is flawed thinking and I often rail against such comments. Yep, I'm a hypocrite. I am but a simple, flawed man.
I don't know if it's abuse or not. I know that I felt like it was when I patted my daughter on the bottom. Never did it again. But that is me and that is my way. The gander may not agree.
I do know that there's more than one way. You've done it yours and I've done it mine. I think I've gotten through Parenthood without ever striking a kid save that one time.
I'll also unequivocally say that for a spanking, CPS should not be taking children away from their families. Other than parents dying, that is the single most traumatic event a child can experience. It should be reserved for cases in which the child's safety is absolutely in immediate danger only. I think CPS oversteps their bounds a lot. They could instead of taking kids away, provide resources to the parents. They could collaborate instead of dominate.
I'm also saying that the exact same act on an adult is a chargeable offense. We only don't charge people when they do it to their children only because it's the children. Doesn't seem right to me. That's a double standard, is it not?
I'm also saying that I don't find people who spank to be less good than me. I don't find them to be bad people. I didn't find my parents to be bad people for my whole childhood! You do you and I'll do me I guess. It came up in conversation and I gave my opinion, but I'm not passing judgment on you or anybody else as a good god-fearing person.
Finally, I'm also saying that I guess or I believe or I estimate that more parents don't spank than do spank nowadays. But most kids aren't in trouble. Is spanking really a contributor to good behavior? I don't think so. I think spanking is something the kids grew up with and so they pass on to their kids. It's the only tool they have because it's the only tool they've ever been presented.
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Pretty good conversation. One last thing, you've said repeatedly you don't understand the difference between spanking your child, and assaulting a coworker, wife, etc.
So, it's my responsibility to raise my child to be honest, self-sufficient, and respectful. This responsibility is given to me by our culture, religion, and laws. To fail to do this means I fail my duty to my child, my family, my neighborhood, my culture.
It's not my responsibility to raise my co-workers, or wife, or gay people or anyone else you've mentioned above. To do so is to overstep my role in society.
In the example of the 9 year old abusing his mother you think that the step-fathers response is equal to assaulting a co-worker?
How about this, then. You're out with your wife, and someone starts assaulting her. You're just going to stand around, because you're afraid to intervene and thereby possibly incur problems with the law? Because "it's wrong to hit"? That's pretty much what you're saying.
Not me. I'll go to jail. Protecting my wife is my responsibility, no matter who thinks otherwise. Just like raising my kid.
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Interesting. Not exactly the same, though. You spank your kid, say, by swatting him and leaving a red mark. And you do it because he doesn't listen to you. Now at work, your subordinate comes in late and doesn't listen to you, so you smack him and leave a red mark.
In one case, it's socially acceptable. In the other case, you go to jail. That's what I don't understand. In one case, a person can't defend themselves, so it's okay to hit them. In the other case, it is legal and acceptable to defend himself, but it's not socially acceptable to hit this person. Seems backwards.
To me, all of them fall under the broad category of conflict resolution. In one case, you're resolving conflict with physical domination. In adult situations, you don't because it's illegal.
So you're saying that God and country bestow a responsibility upon you to teach your kids to be socially acceptable, responsible, and beneficial. To do this, you hit your kids? That teaches them to act correctly in society?
I'm not trying to twist it around, really. It's just that when I look at these facts in a vacuum, it don't make sense. Well it doesn't make sense to me anyways.
The wife thing? Yeah that's a non-sequitur to me. Self defense or defense of others are both legal standings. I've been there and done that like many here.
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I just reread what I wrote and it sounds like I'm talking down to you. I don't mean to do that, and I am not looking down upon you at all.
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The wife thing? Yeah that's a non-sequitur to me. Self defense or defense of others are both legal standings. I've been there and done that like many here.
My friend was defending his wife from her 9 year old. You didn't see the difference between his defending his wife, and assaulting a co-worker for being late to work. That's the difference.
If my co-worker goes out and shoots up a school, I'm not held responsible. No one thinks I should have taught him better.
If my kid does it, it's my fault. That's the difference. I can't put it any plainer.
But, we both agree that, within our definitions, no one should beat their kids, so, there's that. And, we both agree that not all Rocky Patel cigars suck. Just the ones that I don't like.
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"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
So you're saying that God and country bestow a responsibility upon you to teach your kids to be socially acceptable, responsible, and beneficial. To do this, you hit your kids? That teaches them to act correctly in society?
If that's what it takes, as a last resort. It's been proven to work literally millions of times.
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"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The wife thing? Yeah that's a non-sequitur to me. Self defense or defense of others are both legal standings. I've been there and done that like many here.
My friend was defending his wife from her 9 year old. You didn't see the difference between his defending his wife, and assaulting a co-worker for being late to work. That's the difference.
If my co-worker goes out and shoots up a school, I'm not held responsible. No one thinks I should have taught him better.
If my kid does it, it's my fault. That's the difference. I can't put it any plainer.
But, we both agree that, within our definitions, no one should beat their kids, so, there's that. And, we both agree that not all Rocky Patel cigars suck. Just the ones that I don't like.
Fair enough my friend. Let me know when you want to trade some sticks.
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@VegasFrank said: @peter4jc I absolutely know that if a parent can't keep their kids safe, legal citizens without hitting the, then they also can't do it by hitting them either.. Sometimes, you just have to be a parent, brother. It's both as simple and as complicated as that.
@0patience I was a foster parent for 5 years in an urban district, and so I was elbow deep into the system.
Maybe maybe maybe. Maybe I said "if" and maybe I didn't say sue them all. Maybe I could get quoted correctly. And maybe that parent wants me on the jury if he/she did the right thing.
Maybe.
Ok, so when I said a lot of people, you took that as you solely?
I wasn't just talking about the discussion on the forum, but everywhere.
Being a foster parent is quite a bit different than being the foster kid or the parent trying to get their child back.
Having been a foster parent (our foster daughter considers her children our grandchildren), having been a child in the system and having been a grand parent dealing with children's services, I do have a little experience.
I did...sorry. I was reading the message in which you quoted me:
There are those saying the parents maybe the dad left it in the nightstand.
And then said
Well, maybe it was locked up properly.
Maybe the kids figured out how to get it.
Maybe you don't have the whole story and maybe its a good thing you aren't on a jury.
I took that to mean that you meant me. Sorry, no problem, and I stand down on that one.
However, I hear what you guys are saying about the system ostensibly not letting parents discipline their children. As a child, I experienced extreme violence from both of my parents and a step parent. Extreme.
I have three children, including an adopted foster, I have never laid one hand on any of them ever for any reason and I never will. I'm telling you now that you don't have to beat up on children to make them listen to you. Anyone who's using that as an excuse is not equipped to be a parent. Period.
Frank we seem to have more in common than cigars. I also was beat half to death by my step mother until I said no more. You sometimes come across as anti gun. I feel bad because I snapped at you for it a while back. We have rights and choices here. You have every right to believe/feel anyway you want. I wore a uniform for a long time then even longer as a DoD civilian helping to protect those rights. You have your opinion and i wont fault you for that again.
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
In my opinion, the best way to handle a disagreement is to start every comment by saying "this is what I think" to yourself in your head, before you start speaking. Then, instead of criticizing what the other person is saying, you are just expressing your own opinion without making a critique of theirs. It's especially important on the internet, where tone of voice doesn't convey.
My opinion is that spanking isn't the part that's missing in todays raising of kids. Do it or don't do it, whatever, the thing that's missing is just parenting in general.
If Frank continues to do what he's doing, and someone else doesn't interact with their kids, sticks an ipad in their face to keep them entertained except to ask what they want for dinner, but still spanks them when appropriate, then Franks kids will undoubtedly turn out better.
The actual slapping of derriere isn't the make or break factor in raising kids to be good or bad adults, it's taking the time to have them learn what's appropriate, however that gets done.
Again, those are just my thoughts. If you disagree, please share your opinion without trying to make mine be wrong.
@VegasFrank said: @peter4jc I absolutely know that if a parent can't keep their kids safe, legal citizens without hitting the, then they also can't do it by hitting them either.. Sometimes, you just have to be a parent, brother. It's both as simple and as complicated as that.
@0patience I was a foster parent for 5 years in an urban district, and so I was elbow deep into the system.
Maybe maybe maybe. Maybe I said "if" and maybe I didn't say sue them all. Maybe I could get quoted correctly. And maybe that parent wants me on the jury if he/she did the right thing.
Maybe.
Ok, so when I said a lot of people, you took that as you solely?
I wasn't just talking about the discussion on the forum, but everywhere.
Being a foster parent is quite a bit different than being the foster kid or the parent trying to get their child back.
Having been a foster parent (our foster daughter considers her children our grandchildren), having been a child in the system and having been a grand parent dealing with children's services, I do have a little experience.
I did...sorry. I was reading the message in which you quoted me:
There are those saying the parents maybe the dad left it in the nightstand.
And then said
Well, maybe it was locked up properly.
Maybe the kids figured out how to get it.
Maybe you don't have the whole story and maybe its a good thing you aren't on a jury.
I took that to mean that you meant me. Sorry, no problem, and I stand down on that one.
However, I hear what you guys are saying about the system ostensibly not letting parents discipline their children. As a child, I experienced extreme violence from both of my parents and a step parent. Extreme.
I have three children, including an adopted foster, I have never laid one hand on any of them ever for any reason and I never will. I'm telling you now that you don't have to beat up on children to make them listen to you. Anyone who's using that as an excuse is not equipped to be a parent. Period.
Frank we seem to have more in common than cigars. I also was beat half to death by my step mother until I said no more. You sometimes come across as anti gun. I feel bad because I snapped at you for it a while back. We have rights and choices here. You have every right to believe/feel anyway you want. I wore a uniform for a long time then even longer as a DoD civilian helping to protect those rights. You have your opinion and i wont fault you for that again.
Wow interesting. I'm glad that getting beat isn't a one way to let to growing up and being a piece of shít...you and I are evidence of it!
I'm also a vet and a civil servant in the DoD. I've dedicated my life to the profession of arms. I want the bad guys to die, and I wouldn't mind killing them.
I know I come across anti gun, and it's probably because I'm anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric. The NRA represents everything that's wrong in America to me: a pay-to-play PAC that promotes demagogues. But my wife, who worships at the altar of Beto loving anti gun zealots, calls me pro gun 😆. I can't win!!
Ultimately, I don't care if you own a gun or not. I'm pragmatic enough to believe both that guns will never go away but more regulation is coming.
I've owned guns--handguns and shotguns and rifles--at certain points of my life, always for sport, never for personal protection. I would definitely own a gun in the future of I wanted to go duck hunting again, but I'd rather buy cigars at this point.
I've never found the need to protect myself or family by carrying a piece. I'm 45, and have never once thought to myself, "I wish I had a gun right now." I don't understand the mindset of someone who carries to ostensibly protect themselves, but that's okay, to each his own. Carry on! Literally...
Don't worry about snapping or whatever. We cool brother...let's do a trade!
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
@VegasFrank said: @peter4jc I absolutely know that if a parent can't keep their kids safe, legal citizens without hitting the, then they also can't do it by hitting them either.. Sometimes, you just have to be a parent, brother. It's both as simple and as complicated as that.
@0patience I was a foster parent for 5 years in an urban district, and so I was elbow deep into the system.
Maybe maybe maybe. Maybe I said "if" and maybe I didn't say sue them all. Maybe I could get quoted correctly. And maybe that parent wants me on the jury if he/she did the right thing.
Maybe.
Ok, so when I said a lot of people, you took that as you solely?
I wasn't just talking about the discussion on the forum, but everywhere.
Being a foster parent is quite a bit different than being the foster kid or the parent trying to get their child back.
Having been a foster parent (our foster daughter considers her children our grandchildren), having been a child in the system and having been a grand parent dealing with children's services, I do have a little experience.
I did...sorry. I was reading the message in which you quoted me:
There are those saying the parents maybe the dad left it in the nightstand.
And then said
Well, maybe it was locked up properly.
Maybe the kids figured out how to get it.
Maybe you don't have the whole story and maybe its a good thing you aren't on a jury.
I took that to mean that you meant me. Sorry, no problem, and I stand down on that one.
However, I hear what you guys are saying about the system ostensibly not letting parents discipline their children. As a child, I experienced extreme violence from both of my parents and a step parent. Extreme.
I have three children, including an adopted foster, I have never laid one hand on any of them ever for any reason and I never will. I'm telling you now that you don't have to beat up on children to make them listen to you. Anyone who's using that as an excuse is not equipped to be a parent. Period.
Frank we seem to have more in common than cigars. I also was beat half to death by my step mother until I said no more. You sometimes come across as anti gun. I feel bad because I snapped at you for it a while back. We have rights and choices here. You have every right to believe/feel anyway you want. I wore a uniform for a long time then even longer as a DoD civilian helping to protect those rights. You have your opinion and i wont fault you for that again.
Wow interesting. I'm glad that getting beat isn't a one way to let to growing up and being a piece of shít...you and I are evidence of it!
I'm also a vet and a civil servant in the DoD. I've dedicated my life to the profession of arms. I want the bad guys to die, and I wouldn't mind killing them.
I know I come across anti gun, and it's probably because I'm anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric. The NRA represents everything that's wrong in America to me: a pay-to-play PAC that promotes demagogues. But my wife, who worships at the altar of Beto loving anti gun zealots, calls me pro gun 😆. I can't win!!
Ultimately, I don't care if you own a gun or not. I'm pragmatic enough to believe both that guns will never go away but more regulation is coming.
I've owned guns--handguns and shotguns and rifles--at certain points of my life, always for sport, never for personal protection. I would definitely own a gun in the future of I wanted to go duck hunting again, but I'd rather buy cigars at this point.
I've never found the need to protect myself or family by carrying a piece. I'm 45, and have never once thought to myself, "I wish I had a gun right now." I don't understand the mindset of someone who carries to ostensibly protect themselves, but that's okay, to each his own. Carry on! Literally...
Don't worry about snapping or whatever. We cool brother...let's do a trade!
PM owed when I get home
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
@ShawnOL said:
When the twenty something drug addict pulled a knife on my wife and I for drug money, I was very glad I had my .40 caliber glock on me.
And at one point he was a doe-eyed 10 year old. Maybe playing baseball for some little league hoping one day to be a major league ball player. I haven’t met a child yet who wanted to grow up a drug addict. Maybe we should try to, at least look at the reasons where it all went wrong. No child wants to grow up to shoot up a school, do drugs, abuse women and children. They want to be princesses, ball players, actors, singers ETC.... again..... something somewhere went wrong.
@ShawnOL said:
When the twenty something drug addict pulled a knife on my wife and I for drug money, I was very glad I had my .40 caliber glock on me.
And at one point he was a doe-eyed 10 year old. Maybe playing baseball for some little league hoping one day to be a major league ball player. I haven’t met a child yet who wanted to grow up a drug addict. Maybe we should try to, at least look at the reasons where it all went wrong. No child wants to grow up to shoot up a school, do drugs, abuse women and children. They want to be princesses, ball players, actors, singers ETC.... again..... something somewhere went wrong.
No sympathy for the primary victims? Their trauma? If you ignored their trauma because the gun overrode the knife, then you may be pro-gun.
Comments
@VegasFrank , sorry to hear about the abuse you experienced as a child. That obviously has scarred you. No child should have to live with abuse. Spanking, however, is not what you're describing. You're describing abuse. No one here advocates abuse, I'm sure.
Interestingly we had this discussion in a church Men's group I belong to. One of the members told that he deciphered the admonition to "Spare the rod and spoil the child" to mean that one should spare the rod, and actively spoil the child. As in, you should spoil your children.
Some of us disagreed, some agreed. As the discussion progressed, I asked those who agreed that no form of physical punishment should ever be administered if they had boys, girls, or both? Turns out, the ones who think "never", all had girls only. The fathers of boys all said that there were times when nothing else worked. Spanking, not beating, not extreme, not violence.
For the record, spanking should be a last resort, used only when all other remedies have failed. And, it should NEVER be beating like Frank describes.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Lol it didn't scar me for life. Made me who I am. "I want my pain I need my pain," as Captain Kirk once said.
I have boys and girls and I think that hitting them is abuse it should be illegal. I know you come from a different generation where it was acceptable. I know your peers do. That's fine. I'm not calling you a bad person or anything else.. I think society has evolved past spanking.
Let me ask you this. If an 8-ft man who outweighed you by 200 lb came up to you, calmly restrained you, laid hands on you, and proceeded to hit you or spank you 30 times or twice or whatever for doing something that he didn't like that you did, would he go to jail? Eff yeah he would, And you would be glad for it.
If someone hit you with a belt or a switch or a rod or the back of their hand or the front of their hand or their fist, and left raised fingerprints or worse, or didn't leave any marks on your body, would they go to jail? F yeah they would! And you would be glad for it.
So if it's illegal for someone to do something to an adult, why the fück would it be legal to do it to a child that you outweigh by 200 lb or 150 lb? It's a child abuse bro. Maybe it wasn't considered child abuse generation ago when I was a kid or when you were a kid, but it's child abuse. It's assault. It's battery.
And I'm not going to do it to my kids. If I ever saw someone smacking their kid around, I'd step in the middle. Maybe I'd be wrong That's cool, I've been wrong plenty of times in my life. Maybe it's because I was beaten when I was a kid. Maybe it's not. But it's assault brother...
So now I'm trying to think about this and taking a more universal approach. I think spankings child abuse, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Am I right?
I'll give you a little background on myself so you know where I'm coming from. Yes I was beaten or abused several times as a kid. Maybe several times a year. There were many hundreds of more times a year when I was not abused but I was punished, either by the spanking or smacking that many of us grew up with, or a grounding or a restriction of some other type.
So when I was a child and it went too far with me, things would happen. My old man once punched me in the face and I lost a tooth and several more were loose. One time, I was repeatedly told not to put my fingers in the crack of the door by the hinges. It was a habit of mine when I was like three. As punishment, my father made me leave my hand in there and then slammed the door closed. He slammed it so hard that the screws popped off the middle and bottom hinges. I thought my fingers were chopped off! Lol. My mother would beat me with frying pans and belts and straps and sticks and her purse and whatever the hell else she could find in a completely out of control manner. One time she knocked me out with a cheap ass frying pan. One time when I was 11, I was running away from my stepfather who was trying to hit me. I jumped up onto my bed. He literally picked up the footboard, slammed it down, and one of the posts broke off. My bed awkwardly crumbled to the ground and he then beat me with that bedpost. Then he told me to fix the bed and if I didn't have it fixed, he'd hit me with it again.
But those were the abuse things. That's not what I'm talking about. I think everyone here can agree that is bullshít abuse. By the way, when I was a kid I would not have considered it abuse. It was just my normal reality. I grew up, left the house, and continued to have a relationship with them into my late 20s. It wasn't until my mother tried to hit my wife that I abandoned my family forever. That's when I figured out it was not normal, and I didn't have any kids yet at that time.
But for most of the rest of my childhood, I experienced pretty typical things for someone in my generation. My rules were a little more stringent than the rules of my friends, but they were essentially the same. I would get grounded for a report card that had anything less than an A on it. And I was grounded until the next report card. If I received detention for misbehavior, I would get spanked. It would usually involve me holding onto my footboard and my stepdad giving me lashes, mostly on the bare ass, with his 2-in thick leather belt. He was calm about it, and I didn't consider that abuse although I might now. As I grew up, The spankings subsided and the beatings intensified, although they got further apart.
I have been bent over a parent's knee while getting swatted on the butt through my clothes. I've been hit with a belt and a switch in a way that many of you probably have been. I've been smacked around in a way that many of you have been. I didn't consider any of this abuse at the time that it was happening. Hell, I didn't consider the frying pan abuse.
By the way, none of that punishment ever deterred me from doing anything ever. I never thought to myself, " if I get a detention, I'm going to get beat." I did what I did, which was mostly normal kid s***. Sometimes they would scream at me. Sometimes they would smack me around, and sometimes they would beat the living f*** out of me. Fine. Never a deterrent. Never once.
Now, I have three kids. One is a diagnosed autistic bipolar. Think that'll challenge your sanity? Bet your ass. One came from the foster system and grew up with an extreme amount of violence. She once threw a 42-in television down the stairs at me while I was walking up the stairs. She One time broke all of the windows on the first floor of my house. Do you think that spanking would prevent those things? I think that violence taught her violence. When she starts to get violent, I will physically restrain her. Yes. I will hold her arms and her legs and not let her be violent. I've taken a couple of really bad bites to the arm and chest lol, but I've kept her safe. But spanking isn't going to do anything to help curb her violent tendencies that her bio family taught her.
So after sharing all of my experiences, I can tell you that I've taught my children what they need to know without hitting them. I taught them to not run in the street or put their hand on the hot stove or put a ladder on top of the counter to climb on top of the refrigerator or to stay away from any one of the thousand situations, all while not hitting them.
So to the spanking crowd, I guess my question is in what situation would You theoretically spank a child for? What did they do? How did you spank them? How does that teach them not to do it? Is there a way to teach them to behave other than spanking them? Is it more, less or just as effective as the spanking?
Do you think that my kids are more or less likely to steal a car and go to jail riding and kill someone? Do you think they're more or less likely to take the gun out of my nightstand to go shoot up a school? Of course that would assume I have one in my nightstand which I don't but let's just say that I did.
For those of you who spank your kids, I don't want to tell you that you're doing it the wrong way. I don't know your situation. I don't know your background. I don't know your kids. I'm trying to take a universal approach here. But I don't know why you would want to physically hurt and dominate and intimidate someone you love. When I got spanked, I felt the same thing as when I got beaten. I felt, " she's mean. She hates me. I hate her." I wasn't savvy enough to distinguish between what was abused and what wasn't. It was all the same to me. Is that what your kids are thinking?
And one more question for the group, and I will let this topic go forever if you want.
Spanking might work on a toddler. Spanking might work on some sort of preteen or tween kid. Granted. That toddler or that preteen, once they hit puberty, is going to be your size. Do you think spanking will be effective at that point? If that's the only tool in your toolbox, you're going to be very ill-equipped to deal with the problems of a teenager, say a 17-year-old. You won't be able to spank that 17-year-old. But if that's the only way you know how to punish a kid, how the f are you going to deal with it?
Some examples from my experience. Mom would hit you with whatever was handy. But almost never to the point of abuse. Dad only ever used his hand, and probably never on my sisters. His point was that if you're spanking a child, the child should realize that they've driven you beyond the point of reasoning, but that's at least partly your own fault.
I've always thought that the majority of spankings a child receives should've occurred by age 3, and usually to prevent the child from hurting itself or someone else. My son seemed to require one about every 5 years, up to the age of 14, and it was only after all talk and reason and grounding and restricting and more talk and more reason had failed.
Some other instances, two friends of mine got married. She was a single mother, her 1st husband a professional child psychologist who believed as you do, that there's NO circumstance under which a child should be spanked. Her new husband was now living with her and a 9 year old boy who would beat his mother. He'd never been spanked. He would punch her in the stomach until she urinated blood, kick her shins, scream and punch her in the face, couple of broken noses there. Finally, after numerous attempts to curb this behavior, the new husband bent the boy over and beat his little azz. It worked.
Completely different situation. When a friend of mine was 8 his parents divorced, he ended up with Dad and the new Step-mom. Dad was an OTR trucker. Whenever he was out of town, step-mom would take out her frustrations on my friend. Over the course of about 18 months she broke his arm, his collarbone, a few ribs, several concussions, and partially blinded him in the left eye. When Dad returned he was told that the clumsy little fool fell down the stairs, again, and wanted to lie about it because he just didn't like her. Finally the step-moms mother called the birth mother. She came on Christmas morning, pounding on the door, came into the house and beat step-mom through several rooms and down the steps, took her son and left. "Best Christmas Ever", said my friend.
Too many cases of abuse out there. Too many people whose first action is to spank, which, in my opinion is abuse because they haven't even attempted to solve the problems by normal means. But, there are some people, some circumstance, where there has to be a bottom line, when reason has ultimately failed, when there is no other recourse, and those parents should not be punished by law for doing their duty.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Thanks @Amos_Umwhat. Interesting experiences for sure. I am thinking, and I can't remember if I've ever swatted my kids' hand away from a hot stove or knife or something, or whether I've patted their bottoms to direct them away from the top of the staircase. Maybe, and I would hope I wouldn't have CPS knocking down my door or get placed into cuffs for doing so.
It's also true that a 3 and under doesn't have the power of language, and a pat on the bottom may effectively redirect. Cool. I'll call myself good with that if it doesn't hurt and it doesn't leave a mark.
The only thing that gives me pause is the "no other recourse" phrasing. There is probably other recourse, but I think that some parents...especially those who are I'll equipped to be parents, don't have a support system, and/or economically struggle (which puts more pressure/stress on them)...just don't know the other recourses or take shortcuts.
Good talk though...
When I was a kid, many years ago, spanking wasn't considered abuse. I'm talking belts and switches, which I admit I required on a regular basis, were applied as needed in my preteen years. Never was I punched with a fist or intentionally harmed, although my Mom did accidently break my arm once. I also required a few from the principal in grade school,which was allowed.
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Seems to me, when spanking declined, so did good behavior among kids. You didn't see as many young teens assaulting or robbing others. Spanking tended to keep kids in line. Disagree if you want to, most people's minds are already made up before the start of the conversation, anyway.
Trapped in the People's Communits Republic of Massachusetts.
Hey, Frank, you turned out pretty good for an abused kid. Interesting discussion. Do you think that those experiences made you more empathetic?
I get your point, but consider the 9 year old I talked about above. His father has a doctorate in child psychology from a highly acclaimed university. And, all his efforts and methods did not work. What's the average person to do? Where's their recourse? Then, this child who's never once been on the receiving end of physical punishment, because "that would teach him to be violent", finally changes, only after experiencing first hand physical punishment. BTW, he's a good man today, very accomplished and well rounded.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Wow. Guys, thanks for sharing your experiences. So much comes rushing to my mind as I read the last few posts. As a child my parent's discipline became abuse at points. I was an unruly one to be honest.
I remember the last time I spanked my son. He doesn't or he doesn't remember it like I do. He had just turned five and continued to cut up and disturb the class during the day. He would get kicked outta school, they would call and I'd have to go pick him up in the middle of his class day. I'd inevitability take him back to my work, Apple Computer, where he would spend the rest of the day with cool ppl and play on the computers in my lab. Not exactly punishment. I warned him very strongly, explaining his actions in class would not be tolerated. This happened a couple times... On that fateful day not long after my warnings, he pulled his pants down in class. I got the call. I went and got him. We went to my car, I opened the passenger door, threw his bag in the back, and said, "So you like pulling your pants down in school huh? Drop 'em!" I never spanked with a belt until that day, and like I said it would be his last spanking he'd ever get from me. I made him bare his azz and swatted his behind ONE time. It left a mark on his butt.... and his brain. He never cut up in class after that day. All further discipline was handled in non-physical manners.
I regret that one spanking. Very much so. But somewhere in my heart and mind, I understand that that most undesirable moment curbed, perhaps, a lifetime of disciplinary issues.
Things are about to get interesting...
@ShawnOL - correlation doesn't equate to causation. The decline of the nuclear family and the fall of big religion also correlate. So does the rise of violence in media, and so does the number of internet users and avocado eaters. Which factor is it? You (nor the rest of us) just don't know for certain.
@silvermouse - maybe? I dunno. I think that the reason I never spanked my kids is because I was 32 when I had my first one. I was financially ready, mature, and in a stable, 7 year marriage. I experienced a lot of violence growing up, but I am not a violent person. It never appealed to me. It never actually crossed my mind to hit a child. I did swat my daughter on the butt once when she was 2. She was at the top of the staircase. It was a little swat through the diaper. It definitely didn't hurt her and she definitely couldn't even feel it on her skin. It was just a jolt to her momentum. She looked at me with these big sad eyes, like "why did you do that to me?" and I never ever did it again.
@Amos_Umwhat - I understand about the 9 year old in the story, but if he had done that to his wife instead of his kid, he would be a domestic abuser. If he'd have done it to a coworker, he'd be fired. If he'd have done it to a minority or gay person, he'd be charged with a hate crime. But he did it to his kid, so it's okay? I don't understand.
Edit - One additional point about the guy with the degree in your story, all the rules go out the window when it's your own family. Your emotionally invested and attached in those situations, and the conventions of wisdom, logic, training, and research don't apply when it's your own kid.
Because you have your belief in how to raise children, it comes off as anyone who doesn't follow your belief is not fit to be a parent?
We could argue the merits of discipline all day.
And I would be wrong, because clearly it isn't your way.
A pop on the butt, is spanking.
Is that abuse?
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Great question Tony. I fully realize that what I am saying is that my way is right and everybody else's way is wrong. I also totally understand that that is flawed thinking and I often rail against such comments. Yep, I'm a hypocrite. I am but a simple, flawed man.
I don't know if it's abuse or not. I know that I felt like it was when I patted my daughter on the bottom. Never did it again. But that is me and that is my way. The gander may not agree.
I do know that there's more than one way. You've done it yours and I've done it mine. I think I've gotten through Parenthood without ever striking a kid save that one time.
I'll also unequivocally say that for a spanking, CPS should not be taking children away from their families. Other than parents dying, that is the single most traumatic event a child can experience. It should be reserved for cases in which the child's safety is absolutely in immediate danger only. I think CPS oversteps their bounds a lot. They could instead of taking kids away, provide resources to the parents. They could collaborate instead of dominate.
I'm also saying that the exact same act on an adult is a chargeable offense. We only don't charge people when they do it to their children only because it's the children. Doesn't seem right to me. That's a double standard, is it not?
I'm also saying that I don't find people who spank to be less good than me. I don't find them to be bad people. I didn't find my parents to be bad people for my whole childhood! You do you and I'll do me I guess. It came up in conversation and I gave my opinion, but I'm not passing judgment on you or anybody else as a good god-fearing person.
Finally, I'm also saying that I guess or I believe or I estimate that more parents don't spank than do spank nowadays. But most kids aren't in trouble. Is spanking really a contributor to good behavior? I don't think so. I think spanking is something the kids grew up with and so they pass on to their kids. It's the only tool they have because it's the only tool they've ever been presented.
Pretty good conversation. One last thing, you've said repeatedly you don't understand the difference between spanking your child, and assaulting a coworker, wife, etc.
So, it's my responsibility to raise my child to be honest, self-sufficient, and respectful. This responsibility is given to me by our culture, religion, and laws. To fail to do this means I fail my duty to my child, my family, my neighborhood, my culture.
It's not my responsibility to raise my co-workers, or wife, or gay people or anyone else you've mentioned above. To do so is to overstep my role in society.
In the example of the 9 year old abusing his mother you think that the step-fathers response is equal to assaulting a co-worker?
How about this, then. You're out with your wife, and someone starts assaulting her. You're just going to stand around, because you're afraid to intervene and thereby possibly incur problems with the law? Because "it's wrong to hit"? That's pretty much what you're saying.
Not me. I'll go to jail. Protecting my wife is my responsibility, no matter who thinks otherwise. Just like raising my kid.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
sorry cant help myself. put in "most interesting man in the world picture"
"I don't always spank, but when I do, its in the bedroom."
MOW badge received.
Interesting. Not exactly the same, though. You spank your kid, say, by swatting him and leaving a red mark. And you do it because he doesn't listen to you. Now at work, your subordinate comes in late and doesn't listen to you, so you smack him and leave a red mark.
In one case, it's socially acceptable. In the other case, you go to jail. That's what I don't understand. In one case, a person can't defend themselves, so it's okay to hit them. In the other case, it is legal and acceptable to defend himself, but it's not socially acceptable to hit this person. Seems backwards.
To me, all of them fall under the broad category of conflict resolution. In one case, you're resolving conflict with physical domination. In adult situations, you don't because it's illegal.
So you're saying that God and country bestow a responsibility upon you to teach your kids to be socially acceptable, responsible, and beneficial. To do this, you hit your kids? That teaches them to act correctly in society?
I'm not trying to twist it around, really. It's just that when I look at these facts in a vacuum, it don't make sense. Well it doesn't make sense to me anyways.
The wife thing? Yeah that's a non-sequitur to me. Self defense or defense of others are both legal standings. I've been there and done that like many here.
I just reread what I wrote and it sounds like I'm talking down to you. I don't mean to do that, and I am not looking down upon you at all.
My friend was defending his wife from her 9 year old. You didn't see the difference between his defending his wife, and assaulting a co-worker for being late to work. That's the difference.
If my co-worker goes out and shoots up a school, I'm not held responsible. No one thinks I should have taught him better.
If my kid does it, it's my fault. That's the difference. I can't put it any plainer.
But, we both agree that, within our definitions, no one should beat their kids, so, there's that. And, we both agree that not all Rocky Patel cigars suck. Just the ones that I don't like.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
If that's what it takes, as a last resort. It's been proven to work literally millions of times.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
My limited experience raising kids has taught me that they're all different, what works for one kid may or may not work for another.
Fair enough my friend. Let me know when you want to trade some sticks.
Frank we seem to have more in common than cigars. I also was beat half to death by my step mother until I said no more. You sometimes come across as anti gun. I feel bad because I snapped at you for it a while back. We have rights and choices here. You have every right to believe/feel anyway you want. I wore a uniform for a long time then even longer as a DoD civilian helping to protect those rights. You have your opinion and i wont fault you for that again.
In my opinion, the best way to handle a disagreement is to start every comment by saying "this is what I think" to yourself in your head, before you start speaking. Then, instead of criticizing what the other person is saying, you are just expressing your own opinion without making a critique of theirs. It's especially important on the internet, where tone of voice doesn't convey.
My opinion is that spanking isn't the part that's missing in todays raising of kids. Do it or don't do it, whatever, the thing that's missing is just parenting in general.
If Frank continues to do what he's doing, and someone else doesn't interact with their kids, sticks an ipad in their face to keep them entertained except to ask what they want for dinner, but still spanks them when appropriate, then Franks kids will undoubtedly turn out better.
The actual slapping of derriere isn't the make or break factor in raising kids to be good or bad adults, it's taking the time to have them learn what's appropriate, however that gets done.
Again, those are just my thoughts. If you disagree, please share your opinion without trying to make mine be wrong.
Wow interesting. I'm glad that getting beat isn't a one way to let to growing up and being a piece of shít...you and I are evidence of it!
I'm also a vet and a civil servant in the DoD. I've dedicated my life to the profession of arms. I want the bad guys to die, and I wouldn't mind killing them.
I know I come across anti gun, and it's probably because I'm anti NRA and anti gun rhetoric. The NRA represents everything that's wrong in America to me: a pay-to-play PAC that promotes demagogues. But my wife, who worships at the altar of Beto loving anti gun zealots, calls me pro gun 😆. I can't win!!
Ultimately, I don't care if you own a gun or not. I'm pragmatic enough to believe both that guns will never go away but more regulation is coming.
I've owned guns--handguns and shotguns and rifles--at certain points of my life, always for sport, never for personal protection. I would definitely own a gun in the future of I wanted to go duck hunting again, but I'd rather buy cigars at this point.
I've never found the need to protect myself or family by carrying a piece. I'm 45, and have never once thought to myself, "I wish I had a gun right now." I don't understand the mindset of someone who carries to ostensibly protect themselves, but that's okay, to each his own. Carry on! Literally...
Don't worry about snapping or whatever. We cool brother...let's do a trade!
^ respect
When the twenty something drug addict pulled a knife on my wife and I for drug money, I was very glad I had my .40 caliber glock on me.
Trapped in the People's Communits Republic of Massachusetts.
PM owed when I get home
And at one point he was a doe-eyed 10 year old. Maybe playing baseball for some little league hoping one day to be a major league ball player. I haven’t met a child yet who wanted to grow up a drug addict. Maybe we should try to, at least look at the reasons where it all went wrong. No child wants to grow up to shoot up a school, do drugs, abuse women and children. They want to be princesses, ball players, actors, singers ETC.... again..... something somewhere went wrong.
No sympathy for the primary victims? Their trauma? If you ignored their trauma because the gun overrode the knife, then you may be pro-gun.