I would like to think that unis. helped students explore both sides of issues that had sides. I don't recall seeing legislation offered to ban that until now. I call that government overreach.
@silvermouse said:
I would like to think that unis. helped students explore both sides of issues that had sides. I don't recall seeing legislation offered to ban that until now. I call that government overreach.
Perhaps I misunderstood. I absolutely believe that universities should be willing to explore all sides of any issue.
I thought we were talking about exclusionary programs that based their decisions on things that were not intellectual ideas, but rather on affiliation with favored groups based on race, religion, or gender identification.
All should be welcomed, providing that there's room and that the earned qualifications have been met.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
He ran for re-election on implementing an anti-woke agenda and is delivering what the majority of his voters want. If he screws it up, Florida can choose a governor with a different agenda next time. Where's the totalitarianism?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
**DeSantis has not hidden his agenda. He ran for reelection last year on an anti-woke platform, aimed largely at the state’s public schools and universities – places that help shape the hearts and minds of the next generation, which is why they are such a flashpoint.
The fact he won in a landslide – by nearly 20 percentage points – is indicative that many Floridians support the governor and want to see him follow through on his campaign promises to eradicate "wokeness." **
What I don't get about that is he is lauded by the same people who cry 'Freedom' and 'get the government out of our business!'. I guess if you are socially conservative it doesn't seem like meddling in the lives of others to repress honest discussion about racism, sexism, etc. even though those social issues have serious consequences on some Americans.
@silvermouse said:
What I don't get about that is he is lauded by the same people who cry 'Freedom' and 'get the government out of our business!'. I guess if you are socially conservative it doesn't seem like meddling in the lives of others to repress honest discussion about racism, sexism, etc. even though those social issues have serious consequences on some Americans.
Do you think the progressive, woke administrations, and woke students at universities in this country allow conservative students and conservative educators, if there are any, to express themselves and participate in honest discussion about racism, sexism, etc?
Yes, a lot of schools are liberal. A government that bans even discussion of the social issues doesn't promote discussion in schools, though, and that's the goal. Adding the dogwhistle 'woke' shuts down the discussion: You're black, gay, female, you should know your place. You are a free American, sit down, stop whining, and shut up. It is crazy-making. I don't see the logic.
@silvermouse said:
Yes, a lot of schools are liberal. A government that bans even discussion of the social issues doesn't promote discussion in schools, though, and that's the goal. Adding the dogwhistle 'woke' shuts down the discussion: You're black, gay, female, you should know your place. You are a free American, sit down, stop whining, and shut up. It is crazy-making. I don't see the logic.
Eureka! I see the totalitarianism now. No DeSantis! Biden/Harris 2024!
But nobody is prohibiting those discussions. You may be conflating discussion w/ the classroom curriculum.
I've seen it firsthand how a college instructor, in his lessons, will belittle and denigrate conservative thinking and shut down attempts to broach ideas contrary to his liberal leanings. I was around 50 at the time and could take it, but I felt bad for the younger, more malleable minds. Along w/ bias against conservative students (maybe we need a stronger word than bias because a professor can literally change your trajectory in college if they don't like you) there are plenty of professors who may think conservatively, who are punished by these "balanced" unis in a myriad of ways.
I don't know the percentage of universities that are completely 'woke' or of those that would consider themselves woke, how woke they actually are. What I do believe is that they have pushed the woke agenda too hard and too fast, and by not policing themselves (but instead steamrolling over anyone who would try to slow their "progress") they have invited this correction upon themselves.
@VegasFrank said:
There IS a solution to the "problem" though. Conservatives could dedicate their lives to public service and teach....
Dedicate their lives to public service?
Being a professor or teacher is no more virtuous than any other honest profession.
That being said, I do not necessarily disagree with your point. If there were more political diversity among professors and other university staff some of these issues may not exist. Then again, do we even know the liberal to conservative ratio among university faculty?
It is my opinion that the mighty dollar could be the most powerful tool in a situation like this. Don't pay to attend a school that stands in direct opposition to your beliefs.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
@VegasFrank said:
There IS a solution to the "problem" though. Conservatives could dedicate their lives to public service and teach....
Dedicate their lives to public service?
Being a professor or teacher is no more virtuous than any other honest profession.
That being said, I do not necessarily disagree with your point. If there were more political diversity among professors and other university staff some of these issues may not exist. Then again, do we even know the liberal to conservative ratio among university faculty?
It is my opinion that the mighty dollar could be the most powerful tool in a situation like this. Don't pay to attend a school that stands in direct opposition to your beliefs.
Love you bro but I think your first 2 lines are hogwash. Being a teacher is hard. You make no money for the amount of education that is required. You invariably have to deal with students' lives. You invariably work all kinds of undocumented overtime to grade and prep. You typically can't take sick days because you must use them during summer and off times. It's a thankless job most of the time, and 7 in 10 teachers don't make it past year 6 before doing something else.
I don't know much about ivy league professors, but I know a lot about CC profs. These people are dedicated to their craft. They face many of the same challenges. They require PhDs or equivalent degrees. They make a pittance for that 150K+ sheepskin. They don't get vacation. To a person of those I met, they believe in and live a culture of public trust and service.
Both get sabbatical leave for a reason (and it's not just free time, you gotta do field research). Both get tenure for a reason. As a career air force guy, I have zero problem saying that it's at least as important in society as military service.
And for some reason, few conservatives do it. And they bitçh about indoctrination. Meanwhile, I look around this forum and don't see a lot of silver spoons, so I guess many of us went to public schools. Still, many of us escaped the clutches of these evil liberal brainwashers...but we worry that our children won't be as lucky!
None of it makes sense, and from where I sit, people can either lament their terrible luck and curse the fate of the world, or they can get off their Keisters and affect change for themselves. I chose the latter...
@VegasFrank said:
And for some reason, few conservatives do it. And they bitçh about indoctrination. Meanwhile, I look around this forum and don't see a lot of silver spoons, so I guess many of us went to public schools. Still, many of us escaped the clutches of these evil liberal brainwashers...but we worry that our children won't be as lucky!
None of it makes sense, and from where I sit, people can either lament their terrible luck and curse the fate of the world, or they can get off their Keisters and affect change for themselves. I chose the latter...
We will have to agree to disagree as regards the virtuosness of the teaching profession.
Who says few conservatives teach? The ratio of liberal to conservatives in the teaching worl might be more equal than we realize. Perhaps the greater disparity is in positions of power in the universities.
Yes, we escaped our schools with our critical thinking skills intact. However, our schools were not these schools. Our schools did not form clubs or spaces based on skin color. Our schools valued merit more highly than race. At least, that is how I remember them.
I agree that it is best for people to take action and affect change for themselves. Perhaps that is what's being done in Florida now?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
@VegasFrank said:
And for some reason, few conservatives do it. And they bitçh about indoctrination. Meanwhile, I look around this forum and don't see a lot of silver spoons, so I guess many of us went to public schools. Still, many of us escaped the clutches of these evil liberal brainwashers...but we worry that our children won't be as lucky!
None of it makes sense, and from where I sit, people can either lament their terrible luck and curse the fate of the world, or they can get off their Keisters and affect change for themselves. I chose the latter...
We will have to agree to disagree as regards the virtuosness of the teaching profession.
Who says few conservatives teach? The ratio of liberal to conservatives in the teaching worl might be more equal than we realize. Perhaps the greater disparity is in positions of power in the universities.
Yes, we escaped our schools with our critical thinking skills intact. However, our schools were not these schools. Our schools did not form clubs or spaces based on skin color. Our schools valued merit more highly than race. At least, that is how I remember them.
I agree that it is best for people to take action and affect change for themselves. Perhaps that is what's being done in Florida now?
Nah, the issues change, but the narrative has always been the same. Taking prayer out of school and "under god" out of the pledge in my time, and integration in my parents'. Today it's acceptance of other lifestyles. It has always come down to the level of progressiveness being taught by the younger generations to the children of the older generations.
Nah, the issues change, but the narrative has always been the same. Taking prayer out of school and "under god" out of the pledge in my time, and integration in my parents'. Today it's acceptance of other lifestyles. It has always come down to the level of progressiveness being taught by the younger generations to the children of the older generations.
I think labeling it as "acceptance of other lifestyles" is an understatement. It isn't just asking to be accepted, but a demand to be, under threat of punishment. There is a severe threat to our freedom of speech looming over our heads. This threat is partially advanced by "woke" faculty at universities that make skin color and sexual identification an issue.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Yeah you think it's an understatement, but that's where I will disagree with you brother.
I'm not going to argue with you because it's a fruitless endeavor lol. You will never agree with me and I will never agree with you. That's okay in my book.
From a purely argumentative standpoint, I love the rhetorical techniques that you used here. As someone who studies rhetoric for a living, I find it intriguing. The buzz words like demanding, threat, freedom, and woke are meant to both lend credibility to your argument through the use of the constitution of the United States and invoke strong emotional reactions from those who share your beliefs, kind of like circling the wagons. I love it!
You'll disagree with this and although I risk offending you by saying it, I'll give you my opinion about the argument that you made in the pursuit of honest communication:
I think that there's a segment of the population with strong religious beliefs who find alternative lifestyles to be immoral. While the teachings of christ that i have read, and it's been a while, admittedly, essentially come down to the golden rule, I think this segment of the population believes or desires for the immorality to be wiped off the face of the earth. I find this contradictory to the teachings of Christ because I believe that the essence of his teachings was for people to live the best life they could live, and let others do the same. I also strongly believe that this segment of the population uses intimidation to inflict emotional damage on the so-called immoral people. I absolutely believe that they truly believe that society and freedom and gold bucket carrying leprechauns will all be destroyed if this segment of the population is allowed to live their lives the way they want to, instead of the in the ways in which this segment of the population prescribes. I think they honestly believe that their children will fall prey to perverts and will be subjected to a life of pain and an afterlife of hell. This belief, in my opinion comes from a standpoint of fear. Fear of the unknown and fear of the different. I find it reprehensible and against the teachings of christ. But hey I'm just one guy.
I'm not saying that's you dude. I'm saying that this segment of the population exists, and it is loud, and it is influential. I'm also saying that kids from 6 to 60 are savvy. I'm saying that they are more influenced by their peers than they are by their teachers because it's the truth. It has been scientifically proven for 100 years.
This loud and influential segment of the population doesn't realize that kids are going to like and love the kids that they're going to like and love , and it doesn't have one **** bit to do with what a blue-haired teacher in a classroom tells them.
it doesn't have one **** bit to do with what a blue-haired teacher in a classroom tells them.
If it doesn’t matter one **** bit, then the policies proposing to eliminate the current curriculum at issue should not bother you. But it seems that it does.
@VegasFrank said:
There IS a solution to the "problem" though. Conservatives could dedicate their lives to public service and teach....
It’s painful for me to agree with Frank……but if someone has an issue with the staff and curriculum at an institution, it’s legal to home school your children.
My wife is Chair of the fine arts department at the University of New Mexico.
If you want to discuss sexual identity, skin color issues, or the binding parameters that faculty and administrators are bound by, I’ll be glad to invite her here to bring actual facts. @Hobbes86 has expressed many opinions but I don’t see any facts.
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
@VegasFrank said:
There IS a solution to the "problem" though. Conservatives could dedicate their lives to public service and teach....
It’s painful for me to agree with Frank……but if someone has an issue with the staff and curriculum at an institution, it’s legal to home school your children.
My wife is Chair of the fine arts department at the University of New Mexico.
If you want to discuss sexual identity, skin color issues, or the binding parameters that faculty and administrators are bound by, I’ll be glad to invite her here to bring actual facts. @Hobbes86 has expressed many opinions but I don’t see any facts.
@Guitarded said: @Hobbes86 has expressed many opinions but I don’t see any facts.
What is the opinion to fact ratio that must be met in order to partake in this thread?
Obviously none.
What are you afraid of?
That your children might be exposed to someone that looks, acts, or thinks in a manner differently than what you have domineered in to them?
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
What are you afraid of?
That your children might be exposed to someone that looks, acts, or thinks in a manner differently than what you have domineered in to them?
Nobody here has argued that people different than us shouldn't be allowed in schools. Nor has anyone argued that people different from us shouldn't be allowed in society.
Recent discussion has been about the trend of universities no longer prioritizing merit over skin color, sexual identity, etc. Which also included talk of liberal vs. conservative professors and teachers.
There was also conversation about whether or not sexually graphic material should be in school libraries. Though I don't recall if that was this thread or not.
I am not domineering, but I will fulfill my duty as a father and do my best to guide and instruct my children in the way they should go. Which I think other fathers on this forum do as well, just in different ways and with different values.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
I doubt very much that Hobbes is afraid of any of those things.
Let's get back to DeSantis for a second. Let me start by saying that I've not followed his campaigns or spent any time studying his ideals, but let's rather look at what it is that he and many other politicians are tapping into with their rhetoric.
It's pushback. People are tired of the incessant blame game. People who absolutely believe in equality are tired of being told that they are less than equal, or should be, that they should feel guilty for things they had no responsibility for or participation in, nor did they benefit in any way. They also think that the slavery, oppression, discrimination both institutional and societal are wrong, and they've always tried to fight the inequities.
However, it feels like certain sides, most especially those identifying as "woke", are not interested in equality, but rather wish to dominate.
Why? Why do they, we, feel this way? Because of the facts of our own histories.
I'll use myself as an example, not because I'm special, but because I'm average, and representative.
My fathers side of the family, 94% Scots-Irish with a sprinkling of DNA from either Ghana or Sierra Leone and a touch of Native American, did not enter the U.S. until the 1880's. No slave owners whatsoever, in fact very loudly pro integration and equality. Republicans that, like the John Prine song says "voted for Eisenhower 'cause Lincoln won the war".
Furthermore, the DNA says my paternal succession leads back to the first king of all Ireland. Where's my reparations?
Oh, that was "a long time ago". There were many generations of abject poverty between then and now. Doesn't count anymore. Yet the "woke" claim that I must be the recipient of "generational wealth", because my skin is white. My inheritance from my Grandfather consists of an old Barlow pocket knife in poor condition. That's all
Moms side of the family is different. >96% Scots-Irish they've been here and in the South since the 1600's. I know that one of my great grandfathers was a Confederate soldier, I also know that he never owned any slaves, or much of anything else. I have a picture of my Mom, age 4, in the cotton fields picking cotton with a tow-sack dragging behind her. 7th child of 9 to an itinerant sharecropper. There's some white privilege right there.
But the "woke" leaders don't want anyone looking at the similarities, the commonalities. They want to pretend that everyone with white skin is guilty, and they're telling the children that. How is that any less racist than telling black kids that they're intellectually and morally inferior?
It isn't.
Now, a moron reading what I've written above might conclude that I endorse some sort of reactionary right wing movement to ensure white superiority, but no, no way, not now, not here, not ever. What I'd like is for things to settle down and for everyone to be treated the same way, based on their personal efforts and integrity.
Next up is the gender issue.
There are two genders, and a few rare chromosomal anomalies. That's it. Your gender is not assigned at birth, it's recognized, and it doesn't take a biologist to do it. Any sane person on the planet can do it in an instant.
With that said, what you do with your life as an adult is completely your business. Almighty God, creator of Heaven and Earth did not make a mistake concerning your particular incarnation on the planet. You are, however, free to express yourself however you wish. At least, you should be, providing you respect the rights of others along the way.
Want to chop your thing off or turn it inside out and wear clothing usually associated with members of the other gender? Fine by me. Do I care what bathroom you use? Not at all, just behave yourself in there, and keep your hands off the kids or I'll gladly remove your hands for you. Permanently.
But, don't ask me to pay for your gender-negating surgeries or support your using your much more muscular body in gender specific events that aren't the gender you were born. The argument has been "I've always known I was a woman trapped in a mans body, so the government should spend tax dollars to correct Gods mistake".
What a load of crap. How about this? I've always known that I should have been born with a Swiss Chalet and a villa overlooking the sea in Portugal. Anyone think their tax dollars should be spent correcting Gods mistake in this matter?
I didn't think so.
Lastly, if you're taking a college course you're signing up to be taught what the professor is teaching. Whether you agree with it or not. If you want to pass, put the answer you're being taught on the test. You don't have to agree with it, just get past the class and mount your argument just like that professor did.
I encouraged my son to take some Philosophy classes while he was an undergrad. He was going to drop one under a professor I'd had. When I asked him why he gave me a long story about how "He believes...this, or that, or the other". I said no, he doesn't, I know him and I know that's not his beliefs. "But he argued for those beliefs for the last 2 classes". Probably. That's because he's preparing you for the concepts found in the calculus of Logic. If you're going to argue something, you should be able to argue either side, no matter which side you personally believe.
So, DeSantis, Trump, The Woke, scads of politicians benefit from the dynamic power of keeping us all chasing our tails and howling about the mistreatment of people we descended from, but never knew, and most likely didn't benefit from in any way other than that we're here, now, with our own chance to not make the same stupid mistakes again and again.
But, we do.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The trend of universities no longer prioritizing merit over skin color etc….
Where did you get this information?
Google? A “news” channel?
An opinion was expressed and I am curious where the facts came from or was this someone else’s baseless opinion that was regurgitated.
This is a political thread to express opinions, I am curious where the information comes from that these opinions are based on.
It’s not personal, we can agree to disagree.
I don’t share most of my opinions because they aren’t popular and I lack the desire to debate them.
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
@Guitarded said:
The trend of universities no longer prioritizing merit over skin color etc….
Where did you get this information?
Google? A “news” channel?
An opinion was expressed and I am curious where the facts came from or was this someone else’s baseless opinion that was regurgitated.
This is a political thread to express opinions, I am curious where the information comes from that these opinions are based on.
It’s not personal, we can agree to disagree.
I don’t share most of my opinions because they aren’t popular and I lack the desire to debate them.
Here are a couple of articles referencing acceptable SAT scores based on race.
So you expressed an opinion based on a google search.
Do you have any personal experience with a college level administrator, professor, faculty, or a student applying for admission?
I’m not questioning the topic, but the method of research.
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
……but if someone has an issue with the an institution, it’s legal to home school your children.
And it's also legal for a governor of a state, who has an issue with staff and curriculum at a state institution, to make changes that will make some libs lose their s***.
@Guitarded said:
So you expressed an opinion based on a google search.
Do you have any personal experience with a college level administrator, professor, faculty, or a student applying for admission?
I’m not questioning the topic, but the method of research.
Not based on a Google search, based on information contained within articles. Things like quotes from a Harvard dean and the personal experiences of students and others who worked in admissions at universities.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Would said governor make changes that would cost them reelection?
Or did they make changes to get re-elected?
Is the issue personal beliefs or what the outspoken majority wants?
Political party agenda?
My ongoing question is WHY, not necessarily what occurred.
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
@Guitarded said:
So you expressed an opinion based on a google search.
Do you have any personal experience with a college level administrator, professor, faculty, or a student applying for admission?
I’m not questioning the topic, but the method of research.
Not based on a Google search, based on information contained within articles. Things like quotes from a Harvard dean and the personal experiences of students and others who worked in admissions at universities.
So you have zero personal experience, but are willing to express an opinion based on “news” articles. Congratulations.
Friends don't let good friends smoke cheap cigars.
Comments
I would like to think that unis. helped students explore both sides of issues that had sides. I don't recall seeing legislation offered to ban that until now. I call that government overreach.
Perhaps I misunderstood. I absolutely believe that universities should be willing to explore all sides of any issue.
I thought we were talking about exclusionary programs that based their decisions on things that were not intellectual ideas, but rather on affiliation with favored groups based on race, religion, or gender identification.
All should be welcomed, providing that there's room and that the earned qualifications have been met.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
He ran for re-election on implementing an anti-woke agenda and is delivering what the majority of his voters want. If he screws it up, Florida can choose a governor with a different agenda next time. Where's the totalitarianism?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
**DeSantis has not hidden his agenda. He ran for reelection last year on an anti-woke platform, aimed largely at the state’s public schools and universities – places that help shape the hearts and minds of the next generation, which is why they are such a flashpoint.
The fact he won in a landslide – by nearly 20 percentage points – is indicative that many Floridians support the governor and want to see him follow through on his campaign promises to eradicate "wokeness." **
https://news.yahoo.com/desantis-wants-florida-college-students-100503050.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADl9UWILVOWY8jXaypwrnvCMZnBuy-tp27CLOOv3OzGkCIJ0Ofb032ldhFpaep-CkH8If1R3WevP-3NQabcYwv17DH5UKE_azLQU99EMR0_KtMlQUfDXinic8pbqsNSqy15P_Asx1RrHBPAdhEpFV68PHK2pahiQhM-M28XnSaGM
What I don't get about that is he is lauded by the same people who cry 'Freedom' and 'get the government out of our business!'. I guess if you are socially conservative it doesn't seem like meddling in the lives of others to repress honest discussion about racism, sexism, etc. even though those social issues have serious consequences on some Americans.
Do you think the progressive, woke administrations, and woke students at universities in this country allow conservative students and conservative educators, if there are any, to express themselves and participate in honest discussion about racism, sexism, etc?
Yes, a lot of schools are liberal. A government that bans even discussion of the social issues doesn't promote discussion in schools, though, and that's the goal. Adding the dogwhistle 'woke' shuts down the discussion: You're black, gay, female, you should know your place. You are a free American, sit down, stop whining, and shut up. It is crazy-making. I don't see the logic.
Eureka! I see the totalitarianism now. No DeSantis! Biden/Harris 2024!
But nobody is prohibiting those discussions. You may be conflating discussion w/ the classroom curriculum.
I've seen it firsthand how a college instructor, in his lessons, will belittle and denigrate conservative thinking and shut down attempts to broach ideas contrary to his liberal leanings. I was around 50 at the time and could take it, but I felt bad for the younger, more malleable minds. Along w/ bias against conservative students (maybe we need a stronger word than bias because a professor can literally change your trajectory in college if they don't like you) there are plenty of professors who may think conservatively, who are punished by these "balanced" unis in a myriad of ways.
I don't know the percentage of universities that are completely 'woke' or of those that would consider themselves woke, how woke they actually are. What I do believe is that they have pushed the woke agenda too hard and too fast, and by not policing themselves (but instead steamrolling over anyone who would try to slow their "progress") they have invited this correction upon themselves.
There IS a solution to the "problem" though. Conservatives could dedicate their lives to public service and teach....
Dedicate their lives to public service?
Being a professor or teacher is no more virtuous than any other honest profession.
That being said, I do not necessarily disagree with your point. If there were more political diversity among professors and other university staff some of these issues may not exist. Then again, do we even know the liberal to conservative ratio among university faculty?
It is my opinion that the mighty dollar could be the most powerful tool in a situation like this. Don't pay to attend a school that stands in direct opposition to your beliefs.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Love you bro but I think your first 2 lines are hogwash. Being a teacher is hard. You make no money for the amount of education that is required. You invariably have to deal with students' lives. You invariably work all kinds of undocumented overtime to grade and prep. You typically can't take sick days because you must use them during summer and off times. It's a thankless job most of the time, and 7 in 10 teachers don't make it past year 6 before doing something else.
I don't know much about ivy league professors, but I know a lot about CC profs. These people are dedicated to their craft. They face many of the same challenges. They require PhDs or equivalent degrees. They make a pittance for that 150K+ sheepskin. They don't get vacation. To a person of those I met, they believe in and live a culture of public trust and service.
Both get sabbatical leave for a reason (and it's not just free time, you gotta do field research). Both get tenure for a reason. As a career air force guy, I have zero problem saying that it's at least as important in society as military service.
And for some reason, few conservatives do it. And they bitçh about indoctrination. Meanwhile, I look around this forum and don't see a lot of silver spoons, so I guess many of us went to public schools. Still, many of us escaped the clutches of these evil liberal brainwashers...but we worry that our children won't be as lucky!
None of it makes sense, and from where I sit, people can either lament their terrible luck and curse the fate of the world, or they can get off their Keisters and affect change for themselves. I chose the latter...
We will have to agree to disagree as regards the virtuosness of the teaching profession.
Who says few conservatives teach? The ratio of liberal to conservatives in the teaching worl might be more equal than we realize. Perhaps the greater disparity is in positions of power in the universities.
Yes, we escaped our schools with our critical thinking skills intact. However, our schools were not these schools. Our schools did not form clubs or spaces based on skin color. Our schools valued merit more highly than race. At least, that is how I remember them.
I agree that it is best for people to take action and affect change for themselves. Perhaps that is what's being done in Florida now?
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Nah, the issues change, but the narrative has always been the same. Taking prayer out of school and "under god" out of the pledge in my time, and integration in my parents'. Today it's acceptance of other lifestyles. It has always come down to the level of progressiveness being taught by the younger generations to the children of the older generations.
I think labeling it as "acceptance of other lifestyles" is an understatement. It isn't just asking to be accepted, but a demand to be, under threat of punishment. There is a severe threat to our freedom of speech looming over our heads. This threat is partially advanced by "woke" faculty at universities that make skin color and sexual identification an issue.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Yeah you think it's an understatement, but that's where I will disagree with you brother.
I'm not going to argue with you because it's a fruitless endeavor lol. You will never agree with me and I will never agree with you. That's okay in my book.
From a purely argumentative standpoint, I love the rhetorical techniques that you used here. As someone who studies rhetoric for a living, I find it intriguing. The buzz words like demanding, threat, freedom, and woke are meant to both lend credibility to your argument through the use of the constitution of the United States and invoke strong emotional reactions from those who share your beliefs, kind of like circling the wagons. I love it!
You'll disagree with this and although I risk offending you by saying it, I'll give you my opinion about the argument that you made in the pursuit of honest communication:
I think that there's a segment of the population with strong religious beliefs who find alternative lifestyles to be immoral. While the teachings of christ that i have read, and it's been a while, admittedly, essentially come down to the golden rule, I think this segment of the population believes or desires for the immorality to be wiped off the face of the earth. I find this contradictory to the teachings of Christ because I believe that the essence of his teachings was for people to live the best life they could live, and let others do the same. I also strongly believe that this segment of the population uses intimidation to inflict emotional damage on the so-called immoral people. I absolutely believe that they truly believe that society and freedom and gold bucket carrying leprechauns will all be destroyed if this segment of the population is allowed to live their lives the way they want to, instead of the in the ways in which this segment of the population prescribes. I think they honestly believe that their children will fall prey to perverts and will be subjected to a life of pain and an afterlife of hell. This belief, in my opinion comes from a standpoint of fear. Fear of the unknown and fear of the different. I find it reprehensible and against the teachings of christ. But hey I'm just one guy.
I'm not saying that's you dude. I'm saying that this segment of the population exists, and it is loud, and it is influential. I'm also saying that kids from 6 to 60 are savvy. I'm saying that they are more influenced by their peers than they are by their teachers because it's the truth. It has been scientifically proven for 100 years.
This loud and influential segment of the population doesn't realize that kids are going to like and love the kids that they're going to like and love , and it doesn't have one **** bit to do with what a blue-haired teacher in a classroom tells them.
I'll assume that you're disagree below lol.
it doesn't have one **** bit to do with what a blue-haired teacher in a classroom tells them.
If it doesn’t matter one **** bit, then the policies proposing to eliminate the current curriculum at issue should not bother you. But it seems that it does.
It’s painful for me to agree with Frank……but if someone has an issue with the staff and curriculum at an institution, it’s legal to home school your children.
My wife is Chair of the fine arts department at the University of New Mexico.
If you want to discuss sexual identity, skin color issues, or the binding parameters that faculty and administrators are bound by, I’ll be glad to invite her here to bring actual facts.
@Hobbes86 has expressed many opinions but I don’t see any facts.
Woah woah woah, let’s not get carried away.
What is the opinion to fact ratio that must be met in order to partake in this thread?
@VegasFrank
I'm not ignoring your latest reply, just still processing it and considering what you said.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Obviously none.
What are you afraid of?
That your children might be exposed to someone that looks, acts, or thinks in a manner differently than what you have domineered in to them?
Nobody here has argued that people different than us shouldn't be allowed in schools. Nor has anyone argued that people different from us shouldn't be allowed in society.
Recent discussion has been about the trend of universities no longer prioritizing merit over skin color, sexual identity, etc. Which also included talk of liberal vs. conservative professors and teachers.
There was also conversation about whether or not sexually graphic material should be in school libraries. Though I don't recall if that was this thread or not.
I am not domineering, but I will fulfill my duty as a father and do my best to guide and instruct my children in the way they should go. Which I think other fathers on this forum do as well, just in different ways and with different values.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
I doubt very much that Hobbes is afraid of any of those things.
Let's get back to DeSantis for a second. Let me start by saying that I've not followed his campaigns or spent any time studying his ideals, but let's rather look at what it is that he and many other politicians are tapping into with their rhetoric.
It's pushback. People are tired of the incessant blame game. People who absolutely believe in equality are tired of being told that they are less than equal, or should be, that they should feel guilty for things they had no responsibility for or participation in, nor did they benefit in any way. They also think that the slavery, oppression, discrimination both institutional and societal are wrong, and they've always tried to fight the inequities.
However, it feels like certain sides, most especially those identifying as "woke", are not interested in equality, but rather wish to dominate.
Why? Why do they, we, feel this way? Because of the facts of our own histories.
I'll use myself as an example, not because I'm special, but because I'm average, and representative.
My fathers side of the family, 94% Scots-Irish with a sprinkling of DNA from either Ghana or Sierra Leone and a touch of Native American, did not enter the U.S. until the 1880's. No slave owners whatsoever, in fact very loudly pro integration and equality. Republicans that, like the John Prine song says "voted for Eisenhower 'cause Lincoln won the war".
Furthermore, the DNA says my paternal succession leads back to the first king of all Ireland. Where's my reparations?
Oh, that was "a long time ago". There were many generations of abject poverty between then and now. Doesn't count anymore. Yet the "woke" claim that I must be the recipient of "generational wealth", because my skin is white. My inheritance from my Grandfather consists of an old Barlow pocket knife in poor condition. That's all
Moms side of the family is different. >96% Scots-Irish they've been here and in the South since the 1600's. I know that one of my great grandfathers was a Confederate soldier, I also know that he never owned any slaves, or much of anything else. I have a picture of my Mom, age 4, in the cotton fields picking cotton with a tow-sack dragging behind her. 7th child of 9 to an itinerant sharecropper. There's some white privilege right there.
But the "woke" leaders don't want anyone looking at the similarities, the commonalities. They want to pretend that everyone with white skin is guilty, and they're telling the children that. How is that any less racist than telling black kids that they're intellectually and morally inferior?
It isn't.
Now, a moron reading what I've written above might conclude that I endorse some sort of reactionary right wing movement to ensure white superiority, but no, no way, not now, not here, not ever. What I'd like is for things to settle down and for everyone to be treated the same way, based on their personal efforts and integrity.
Next up is the gender issue.
There are two genders, and a few rare chromosomal anomalies. That's it. Your gender is not assigned at birth, it's recognized, and it doesn't take a biologist to do it. Any sane person on the planet can do it in an instant.
With that said, what you do with your life as an adult is completely your business. Almighty God, creator of Heaven and Earth did not make a mistake concerning your particular incarnation on the planet. You are, however, free to express yourself however you wish. At least, you should be, providing you respect the rights of others along the way.
Want to chop your thing off or turn it inside out and wear clothing usually associated with members of the other gender? Fine by me. Do I care what bathroom you use? Not at all, just behave yourself in there, and keep your hands off the kids or I'll gladly remove your hands for you. Permanently.
But, don't ask me to pay for your gender-negating surgeries or support your using your much more muscular body in gender specific events that aren't the gender you were born. The argument has been "I've always known I was a woman trapped in a mans body, so the government should spend tax dollars to correct Gods mistake".
What a load of crap. How about this? I've always known that I should have been born with a Swiss Chalet and a villa overlooking the sea in Portugal. Anyone think their tax dollars should be spent correcting Gods mistake in this matter?
I didn't think so.
Lastly, if you're taking a college course you're signing up to be taught what the professor is teaching. Whether you agree with it or not. If you want to pass, put the answer you're being taught on the test. You don't have to agree with it, just get past the class and mount your argument just like that professor did.
I encouraged my son to take some Philosophy classes while he was an undergrad. He was going to drop one under a professor I'd had. When I asked him why he gave me a long story about how "He believes...this, or that, or the other". I said no, he doesn't, I know him and I know that's not his beliefs. "But he argued for those beliefs for the last 2 classes". Probably. That's because he's preparing you for the concepts found in the calculus of Logic. If you're going to argue something, you should be able to argue either side, no matter which side you personally believe.
So, DeSantis, Trump, The Woke, scads of politicians benefit from the dynamic power of keeping us all chasing our tails and howling about the mistreatment of people we descended from, but never knew, and most likely didn't benefit from in any way other than that we're here, now, with our own chance to not make the same stupid mistakes again and again.
But, we do.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The trend of universities no longer prioritizing merit over skin color etc….
Where did you get this information?
Google? A “news” channel?
An opinion was expressed and I am curious where the facts came from or was this someone else’s baseless opinion that was regurgitated.
This is a political thread to express opinions, I am curious where the information comes from that these opinions are based on.
It’s not personal, we can agree to disagree.
I don’t share most of my opinions because they aren’t popular and I lack the desire to debate them.
Here are a couple of articles referencing acceptable SAT scores based on race.
https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/harvards-gatekeeper-reveals-sat-cutoff-scores-based-on-race/
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/jeff-sessions-affirmative-action-college-admissions-investigate-racial-discrimination/
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
So you expressed an opinion based on a google search.
Do you have any personal experience with a college level administrator, professor, faculty, or a student applying for admission?
I’m not questioning the topic, but the method of research.
If the holy bible is a book and the church is based on it, does that make the church a tax exempt book club?
……but if someone has an issue with the an institution, it’s legal to home school your children.
And it's also legal for a governor of a state, who has an issue with staff and curriculum at a state institution, to make changes that will make some libs lose their s***.
Not based on a Google search, based on information contained within articles. Things like quotes from a Harvard dean and the personal experiences of students and others who worked in admissions at universities.
"Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17
Will you define losing their s**t?
Would said governor make changes that would cost them reelection?
Or did they make changes to get re-elected?
Is the issue personal beliefs or what the outspoken majority wants?
Political party agenda?
My ongoing question is WHY, not necessarily what occurred.
So you have zero personal experience, but are willing to express an opinion based on “news” articles. Congratulations.