So I'd like the FDA to explain how a $5 cigar is different than a $20 cigar.
Why should one be under those regulations and the higher priced ones exempt?
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
@0patience said:
So I'd like the FDA to explain how a $5 cigar is different than a $20 cigar.
Why should one be under those regulations and the higher priced ones exempt?
I'm worried about this too. I believe it was some arbitrary number, like $11 or more. I think a lot of the B&M shops were supporting it as well. Writing letters advocating taxing online cigars and excise taxes and making mandatory minimum pricing "to level the playing field". I understand their self serving motivation but I don't like it one bit. It may price a lot of folks out. Always a good time to be stocking up. Like cheap guns and ammo, it too will eventually be a thing of the past.
@0patience said:
So I'd like the FDA to explain how a $5 cigar is different than a $20 cigar.
Why should one be under those regulations and the higher priced ones exempt?
I'm worried about this too. I believe it was some arbitrary number, like $11 or more. I think a lot of the B&M shops were supporting it as well. Writing letters advocating taxing online cigars and excise taxes and making mandatory minimum pricing "to level the playing field". I understand their self serving motivation but I don't like it one bit. It may price a lot of folks out. Always a good time to be stocking up. Like cheap guns and ammo, it too will eventually be a thing of the past.
Self serving almost always ends up being a problem for everyone, including the person who is more concerned about themselves.
Years ago, they tried a "must be at least manufacturer's suggested retail price" on ammo. A lot of gun shops lost their a$$e$ on it and some shops would give "bulk discounts" on anything more than a box of 20.
Eventually, they had to remove the ordinance.
I suspect that there will be loopholes that some places will capitalize on.
In Fumo Pax Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
@0patience said:
So I'd like the FDA to explain how a $5 cigar is different than a $20 cigar.
Why should one be under those regulations and the higher priced ones exempt?
I'm worried about this too. I believe it was some arbitrary number, like $11 or more. I think a lot of the B&M shops were supporting it as well. Writing letters advocating taxing online cigars and excise taxes and making mandatory minimum pricing "to level the playing field". I understand their self serving motivation but I don't like it one bit. It may price a lot of folks out. Always a good time to be stocking up. Like cheap guns and ammo, it too will eventually be a thing of the past.
Self serving almost always ends up being a problem for everyone, including the person who is more concerned about themselves.
Years ago, they tried a "must be at least manufacturer's suggested retail price" on ammo. A lot of gun shops lost their a$$e$ on it and some shops would give "bulk discounts" on anything more than a box of 20.
Eventually, they had to remove the ordinance.
I suspect that there will be loopholes that some places will capitalize on.
Exactly, ends up being a catch-22. When they raise prices and taxes too high, people will simply find a way around them or reduce consumption considerably. They never learn. Same dumb sheet expecting a different result.
WHAT IS A PREMIUM CIGAR?
FDA will consider most cigars you see sold in a humidor to be premium except for flavored or infused large cigars.
It defines “premium cigars” as those that meet all of the following criteria:
is wrapped in whole tobacco leaf;
contains a 100 percent leaf tobacco binder;
contains at least 50 percent (of the filler by weight) long filler tobacco (i.e., whole tobacco leaves that run the length of the cigar);
is handmade or hand rolled (i.e., no machinery was used apart from simple tools, such as scissors to cut the tobacco prior to rolling);
has no filter, nontobacco tip, or nontobacco mouthpiece;
does not have a characterizing flavor other than tobacco;
contains only tobacco, water, and vegetable gum with no other ingredients or additives;
and weighs more than 6 pounds per 1,000 units.
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
And we can thank the honorable Judge, Rocky Patel, and all the others in the cigar industry who have placed their own money on the table to help make these rulings happen. Until the next time this rolls around, it really does a great deal to help the cigar industry. I'm certain the FDA isn't done yet, and hopefully it will take them more than just a few years to start poking and prodding.
"Love is a dung heap, Betty and I am but a c.o.c.k. that climbs upon it to crow."
They're fairly certain that their job definition is to make new regulations, therefore, they're never going to stop.
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
“It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among [my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person, the hatred they bore to his political opinions.” —Thomas Jefferson (1808)
CRA & PCA Statement On Release Of
Premium Cigar SE & PMTA Final Rule
WASHINGTON, D.C. - Last night, the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and the Center for Tobacco Products (CTP) released the Final Substantial Equivalence (SE) and Premarket Tobacco Product Application (PMTA) Rules to address deemed products. While the rules apply regulations to a wide variety of products, FDA stopped short of applying the new regulations to "premium cigars" acknowledging that the agency is evaluating industry comments and its own research on the category.
"... at this time, FDA is not finalizing the proposed SE rule with respect to "premium" cigars. Rather, FDA will take appropriate action once it has further considered the comments submitted to the deeming rule docket that suggested FDA create a streamlined SE process for "premium" cigars..."
The Final Rule reflects targeted efforts by Premium Cigar Association (PCA) and Cigar Rights of America (CRA) over many years to educate FDA, CTP, and White House officials with category specific data on premium cigars as they relate to public health risk for youth and nicotine addiction and urging them to exclude premium cigars from regulations that are ill-suited to the category. The Final Rule also builds upon the federal court ruling that FDA failed to fully evaluate the comments it had received during its proposed rulemaking on premium cigars before taking action to regulate the category.
Yesterday's release notes, "As discussed in section V.C.1 of this final rule, we are adding the Cigar Ass'n of Am.court's definition of "premium" cigars to § 1107.12. That definition is:
"Premium" cigars means a type of cigar that: (1) is wrapped in whole tobacco leaf; (2) contains a 100 percent leaf tobacco binder; (3) contains at least 50 percent (of the filler by weight) long filler tobacco (i.e., whole tobacco leaves that run the length of the cigar); (4) is handmade or hand rolled (i.e., no machinery was used apart from simple tools, such as scissors to cut the tobacco prior to rolling); (5) has no filter, nontobacco tip, or nontobacco mouthpiece; (6) does not have a characterizing flavor other than tobacco; (7) contains only tobacco, water, and vegetable gum with no other ingredients or additives; and (8) weighs more than 6 pounds per 1,000 units."
This is an important victory for the associations and will provide a formative definition for future use at both the federal and state levels in the legislative and regulatory process.
"This is the result of a continued effort in the courts and educating lawmakers and regulators about our industry by the PCA and CRA teams," said Scott Pearce, Executive Director of the Premium Cigar Association. "How this industry is defined ultimately determines how it is regulated and the public health risk data for premium cigars simply doesn't compare to that of other deemed products."
Robert Levin, Chairman of CRA, added, "The release of the Final Rule is a culmination of years of advocacy work in Washington that laid the groundwork for a specific and distinct definition of premium cigars that is now part of a federal definition."
I think the completely hand rolled portion of the language may come back to bite later down the road. I fully expect to see some portion(s) mechanized to save on labor costs at some point in time; while still remaining a premium product. Counting on low wage labor in perpetuity may end up being shortsighted. Time will tell. At least there is something definitive to work with moving forward. Not having the minimum pricing scheme is a big win IMO.
I have heard from various sources that they are working toward banning the flavor infused cigars in certain areas of the country, so as to "protect the children". However, in our newspaper today was an article of a driver that was pulled over and subsequently arrested after they found a weapon and drugs in his vehicle. (Note: pot is still illegal here.)
These are in no way even possibly interesting to children.
That's my wtf. Par for the course. The reason weed gets such good treatment is that there are major bucks to be had by hungry local governments. Not so much with the tiny cigar industry.
@CtheHam said:
I have heard from various sources that they are working toward banning the flavor infused cigars in certain areas of the country, so as to "protect the children". However, in our newspaper today was an article of a driver that was pulled over and subsequently arrested after they found a weapon and drugs in his vehicle. (Note: pot is still illegal here.)
These are in no way even possibly interesting to children.
I think it's more of an effort to go after the vaping industry. They lumped the flavored cigars in as a byproduct of legislation. The vaping was/is big with the kids but I don't like the sweeping legislation because it targets the whole market.
Not many kids smoke flavored cigars, the majority of those go to blunts, it's the outer wrapper that is prized. I'm thinking they just included flavored cigars because they could. Most of the highbrow folks and power brokers don't smoke them anyway so they go along with it as long as they get a carve out for themselves. Much like gun laws here, exemptions for police but bans/prohibition for the unwashed masses and politically unconnected.
I actually tried some vaping for a bit. Tasty products. Heck the mango juul was awsome and there were some pear and other salt nicotine products from Juice Heads that were great IMO. It gave a little freedom back to folks who wanted nicotine in anti nicotine environments. No stench, no smoke, and helped a lot of folks to give up cigarettes. The tobacco flavored juices were terrible and I'm sure a lot people returned to cigarettes when the supply dried up even though you can still make your own. Many still do but others are not comfortable enough.
It's just like the pot candies, an adult has to purchase them. Banning a whole segment or class of products because some fall into the wrong hands is rediculous and anti freedom. It's also hypocritical seeing as how there's a whole host of other products that kids misuse (paint, cigs, booze, pills, whip it's etc etc) but aren't banned because those doing the banning enjoy those products as well. Nothing pisses me off more than a self righteous hypocrite who believes in rules for thee but not for me.
It's also a slippery slope. When folks don't speak up for others rights and existence because it doesn't effect them, they will eventually have no one left to speak for them. Incrementally is how rights and freedoms are stripped away. I always try and yield to freedom, even if I don't particularly care for something. Choice is always best left up to the individual rather than a permission from the state. 🇺🇸
Man , that's only half a win. Shipping with age verification signature will add several dollars to every purchase, and since the vendor is required to remit the tax, I'm guessing the big guys will just say fvck it and still not offer it....
But they don't have to pay the cigar tax in California from Bethlehem Pennsylvania or from the other major outlets. That would involve changing server side applications.
@VegasFrank said:
But they don't have to pay the cigar tax in California from Bethlehem Pennsylvania or from the other major outlets. That would involve changing server side applications.
Are you saying they need more taxes in California? Watch out! They'll elect you to something!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Comments
So I'd like the FDA to explain how a $5 cigar is different than a $20 cigar.
Why should one be under those regulations and the higher priced ones exempt?
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
I'm worried about this too. I believe it was some arbitrary number, like $11 or more. I think a lot of the B&M shops were supporting it as well. Writing letters advocating taxing online cigars and excise taxes and making mandatory minimum pricing "to level the playing field". I understand their self serving motivation but I don't like it one bit. It may price a lot of folks out. Always a good time to be stocking up. Like cheap guns and ammo, it too will eventually be a thing of the past.
Self serving almost always ends up being a problem for everyone, including the person who is more concerned about themselves.
Years ago, they tried a "must be at least manufacturer's suggested retail price" on ammo. A lot of gun shops lost their a$$e$ on it and some shops would give "bulk discounts" on anything more than a box of 20.
Eventually, they had to remove the ordinance.
I suspect that there will be loopholes that some places will capitalize on.
Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy cigars and that's close enough.
Exactly, ends up being a catch-22. When they raise prices and taxes too high, people will simply find a way around them or reduce consumption considerably. They never learn. Same dumb sheet expecting a different result.
All cigars will cost $11+
Trapped in the People's Communits Republic of Massachusetts.
WHAT IS A PREMIUM CIGAR?
FDA will consider most cigars you see sold in a humidor to be premium except for flavored or infused large cigars.
It defines “premium cigars” as those that meet all of the following criteria:
is wrapped in whole tobacco leaf;
contains a 100 percent leaf tobacco binder;
contains at least 50 percent (of the filler by weight) long filler tobacco (i.e., whole tobacco leaves that run the length of the cigar);
is handmade or hand rolled (i.e., no machinery was used apart from simple tools, such as scissors to cut the tobacco prior to rolling);
has no filter, nontobacco tip, or nontobacco mouthpiece;
does not have a characterizing flavor other than tobacco;
contains only tobacco, water, and vegetable gum with no other ingredients or additives;
and weighs more than 6 pounds per 1,000 units.
Nothing about price in the latest definition.
All that's damn arbitrary.
Something went our way today;
https://cigaraficionado.com/article/court-strikes-down-key-premarket-review-process-for-premium-cigars?utm_campaign=ca_fdaSEreports_081920&utm_source=ca_fdaSEreports_081920&utm_medium=email&utm_content=16fd418fb41a3f92c3d6b838967d376c
Totally expected. This judge is a cigar smoker.
And we can thank the honorable Judge, Rocky Patel, and all the others in the cigar industry who have placed their own money on the table to help make these rulings happen. Until the next time this rolls around, it really does a great deal to help the cigar industry. I'm certain the FDA isn't done yet, and hopefully it will take them more than just a few years to start poking and prodding.
They're fairly certain that their job definition is to make new regulations, therefore, they're never going to stop.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
From the latest issue of Tobacco News
Nothing to see here
CRA & PCA Statement On Release Of
Premium Cigar SE & PMTA Final Rule
WASHINGTON, D.C. - Last night, the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) and the Center for Tobacco Products (CTP) released the Final Substantial Equivalence (SE) and Premarket Tobacco Product Application (PMTA) Rules to address deemed products. While the rules apply regulations to a wide variety of products, FDA stopped short of applying the new regulations to "premium cigars" acknowledging that the agency is evaluating industry comments and its own research on the category.
"... at this time, FDA is not finalizing the proposed SE rule with respect to "premium" cigars. Rather, FDA will take appropriate action once it has further considered the comments submitted to the deeming rule docket that suggested FDA create a streamlined SE process for "premium" cigars..."
The Final Rule reflects targeted efforts by Premium Cigar Association (PCA) and Cigar Rights of America (CRA) over many years to educate FDA, CTP, and White House officials with category specific data on premium cigars as they relate to public health risk for youth and nicotine addiction and urging them to exclude premium cigars from regulations that are ill-suited to the category. The Final Rule also builds upon the federal court ruling that FDA failed to fully evaluate the comments it had received during its proposed rulemaking on premium cigars before taking action to regulate the category.
Yesterday's release notes, "As discussed in section V.C.1 of this final rule, we are adding the Cigar Ass'n of Am.court's definition of "premium" cigars to § 1107.12. That definition is:
"Premium" cigars means a type of cigar that: (1) is wrapped in whole tobacco leaf; (2) contains a 100 percent leaf tobacco binder; (3) contains at least 50 percent (of the filler by weight) long filler tobacco (i.e., whole tobacco leaves that run the length of the cigar); (4) is handmade or hand rolled (i.e., no machinery was used apart from simple tools, such as scissors to cut the tobacco prior to rolling); (5) has no filter, nontobacco tip, or nontobacco mouthpiece; (6) does not have a characterizing flavor other than tobacco; (7) contains only tobacco, water, and vegetable gum with no other ingredients or additives; and (8) weighs more than 6 pounds per 1,000 units."
This is an important victory for the associations and will provide a formative definition for future use at both the federal and state levels in the legislative and regulatory process.
"This is the result of a continued effort in the courts and educating lawmakers and regulators about our industry by the PCA and CRA teams," said Scott Pearce, Executive Director of the Premium Cigar Association. "How this industry is defined ultimately determines how it is regulated and the public health risk data for premium cigars simply doesn't compare to that of other deemed products."
Robert Levin, Chairman of CRA, added, "The release of the Final Rule is a culmination of years of advocacy work in Washington that laid the groundwork for a specific and distinct definition of premium cigars that is now part of a federal definition."
At least they didn't define a premium cigar as one that retails for $15 like they were saying before. That's good news.
I think the completely hand rolled portion of the language may come back to bite later down the road. I fully expect to see some portion(s) mechanized to save on labor costs at some point in time; while still remaining a premium product. Counting on low wage labor in perpetuity may end up being shortsighted. Time will tell. At least there is something definitive to work with moving forward. Not having the minimum pricing scheme is a big win IMO.
The majority of Drew Estate's catalog is no longer considered premium.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
I have heard from various sources that they are working toward banning the flavor infused cigars in certain areas of the country, so as to "protect the children". However, in our newspaper today was an article of a driver that was pulled over and subsequently arrested after they found a weapon and drugs in his vehicle. (Note: pot is still illegal here.)
These are in no way even possibly interesting to children.
https://peakofohio.com/news/details.cfm?clientid=5&id=319573#.YDRbIehKiUk
That's my wtf. Par for the course. The reason weed gets such good treatment is that there are major bucks to be had by hungry local governments. Not so much with the tiny cigar industry.
I think it's more of an effort to go after the vaping industry. They lumped the flavored cigars in as a byproduct of legislation. The vaping was/is big with the kids but I don't like the sweeping legislation because it targets the whole market.
Not many kids smoke flavored cigars, the majority of those go to blunts, it's the outer wrapper that is prized. I'm thinking they just included flavored cigars because they could. Most of the highbrow folks and power brokers don't smoke them anyway so they go along with it as long as they get a carve out for themselves. Much like gun laws here, exemptions for police but bans/prohibition for the unwashed masses and politically unconnected.
I actually tried some vaping for a bit. Tasty products. Heck the mango juul was awsome and there were some pear and other salt nicotine products from Juice Heads that were great IMO. It gave a little freedom back to folks who wanted nicotine in anti nicotine environments. No stench, no smoke, and helped a lot of folks to give up cigarettes. The tobacco flavored juices were terrible and I'm sure a lot people returned to cigarettes when the supply dried up even though you can still make your own. Many still do but others are not comfortable enough.
It's just like the pot candies, an adult has to purchase them. Banning a whole segment or class of products because some fall into the wrong hands is rediculous and anti freedom. It's also hypocritical seeing as how there's a whole host of other products that kids misuse (paint, cigs, booze, pills, whip it's etc etc) but aren't banned because those doing the banning enjoy those products as well. Nothing pisses me off more than a self righteous hypocrite who believes in rules for thee but not for me.
It's also a slippery slope. When folks don't speak up for others rights and existence because it doesn't effect them, they will eventually have no one left to speak for them. Incrementally is how rights and freedoms are stripped away. I always try and yield to freedom, even if I don't particularly care for something. Choice is always best left up to the individual rather than a permission from the state. 🇺🇸
Silly FDA and their whip-it parties.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
Very well said, @CAcigarguy007 .
Trapped in the People's Communits Republic of Massachusetts.
@CharlieHeis
https://halfwheel.com/mail-order-shipments-of-cigars-to-south-dakota-will-be-allowed-next-year/390997/
MOW badge received.
Finally some good news!
Awesome. I hadn't seen that yet.
Man , that's only half a win. Shipping with age verification signature will add several dollars to every purchase, and since the vendor is required to remit the tax, I'm guessing the big guys will just say fvck it and still not offer it....
They still take my money in CA and have to do age verification.
But they don't have to pay the cigar tax in California from Bethlehem Pennsylvania or from the other major outlets. That would involve changing server side applications.
Are you saying they need more taxes in California? Watch out! They'll elect you to something!
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
They do have to charge local PA customers with state tax, so it shouldn't be that hard to change, but we'll see what happens next year.