@Patrickbrick said:
I will never understand why they push the rhetoric of only the non-vaccinated are spreading it. If you can get it you can spread it, its that simple and the vaccinated are still getting it so there's that.
I know 4 people who have died from it. 2 were fully vaccinated. One that wasn't had major health issues before covid and was hospitalized when this first started pre-vaccine.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
@Patrickbrick said:
I will never understand why they push the rhetoric of only the non-vaccinated are spreading it. If you can get it you can spread it, its that simple and the vaccinated are still getting it so there's that.
Maybe the problem is it isn't a true vaccine, but more along the lines of a flu shot. Only effective against a particular strain of virus, in which case we'll never not need yearly or perhaps semi yearly boosters.
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
Today's despicable person: The owner of a Texas restaurant about 20 miles northeast of Dallas who threw out a young couple who were on a rare night out with friends.
Were they kicked out because they were drunk, unruly, or rude? Nope. They were shown the door because they had the audacity to wear masks.
That's right: The owner has a no-mask policy.
Each of the young parents wears a mask whenever they leave the house because their 4-month-old son has cystic fibrosis -- a serious disease of the lungs and digestive system. Their waitress didn't care. She closed out their tab and sent them on their way.
The owner does have the right to do that, but yeah I agree it was the wrong thing to do. We do things a little different down here in Texas.
If you quote me do the @TX98Z28 in your text or I won't be notified of your quote, Thanks.
Well I'm convinced. 100% of the times that I have operated a vehicle with >1% b.a.c. I got home fine, no one was hurt, not even a fender bender. Obviously, I'll get a lot of support here in my bid to repeal all drunk-driving laws. It's my right to down a quart of Old Overcoat and drive at 90 mph through a school zone. Why so fast? Because I like it. It's my right.
What the heck, no matter what happens I won't kill even 1% of the school children in America. In fact, I'll bet that less than 1% of people driving were EVER killed by a drunk driver, and I freakin' feel like doing it. Aren't we told all the time that alcoholism is a disease? Just like Covid? Sure, it might be your Mom, or your kids that get run down, but WTF? Who gives a rip? We're all going to be dead in 100 years anyway.
And that, friends, is NOT a weak analogy.
And, it answers all your questions above, @Usaf06 .
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
@Amos_Umwhat said:
Well I'm convinced. 100% of the times that I have operated a vehicle with >1% b.a.c. I got home fine, no one was hurt, not even a fender bender. Obviously, I'll get a lot of support here in my bid to repeal all drunk-driving laws. It's my right to down a quart of Old Overcoat and drive at 90 mph through a school zone. Why so fast? Because I like it. It's my right.
What the heck, no matter what happens I won't kill even 1% of the school children in America. In fact, I'll bet that less than 1% of people driving were EVER killed by a drunk driver, and I freakin' feel like doing it. Aren't we told all the time that alcoholism is a disease? Just like Covid? Sure, it might be your Mom, or your kids that get run down, but WTF? Who gives a rip? We're all going to be dead in 100 years anyway.
And that, friends, is NOT a weak analogy.
And, it answers all your questions above, @Usaf06 .
Your citing laws that have nothing to do with a voluntary vaccine. Doesn't even apply. S0 you answered no questions of mine. And I never asked how long he's been here so don't really care about that either. I simply asked if he smokes cigars since I haven't seen a cigar related post. But thanks for nothing.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
**** yes I know its satire. Don't get your panties in a wad ****
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Wow, a lot has happened. Nobody is listening to each other...you all just continue to circle around the arguments, refusing to acknowledge each other's points of view. It's turned into useless bullshít.
@Rob1110 you have all the logic in the world like 1 in 86,000. It's all rock solid and irrefutable. What you don't acknowledge is that this isn't a logical issue for Nick and Wayne. It is derived completely of ethos and pathos. Ethos in that it's the American way to choose your own adventure, and pathos in that they have an emotional repulsion to capitulating to what the logic--delivered to them by politicians and media that they don't trust--tells them to do. The more data that mounts against the anti-vaxxers stance, the more they dig their heels in. That's how Infowars and the guardian came into existence.
@Usaf06 and @Wylaff, you give no validity to the factual, verified data that Rob presents, and it actually weakens your position because it makes you seem unreasonable--sort of like the AOC snowflakes that get lots of memes in the other thread--especially since there is no downside data to getting a vaccine. This is especially true once the "do you smoke cigars" accusations started flying around. It would be better to say that you understand the data and choose to go against CDC and FDA medical data in pursuit of your American freedoms than it is to attack a guy personally for his data and opinions, lest you want to be labeled a vaxflake.
I hope that the restaurant in Texas burns to the ground. What a fücking joke of a human being that owner is.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
@VegasFrank said:
Wow, a lot has happened. Nobody is listening to each other...you all just continue to circle around the arguments, refusing to acknowledge each other's points of view. It's turned into useless bullshít.
@Rob1110 you have all the logic in the world like 1 in 86,000. It's all rock solid and irrefutable. What you don't acknowledge is that this isn't a logical issue for Nick and Wayne. It is derived completely of ethos and pathos. Ethos in that it's the American way to choose your own adventure, and pathos in that they have an emotional repulsion to capitulating to what the logic--delivered to them by politicians and media that they don't trust--tells them to do. The more data that mounts against the anti-vaxxers stance, the more they dig their heels in. That's how Infowars and the guardian came into existence.
@Usaf06 and @Wylaff, you give no validity to the factual, verified data that Rob presents, and it actually weakens your position because it makes you seem unreasonable--sort of like the AOC snowflakes that get lots of memes in the other thread--especially since there is no downside data to getting a vaccine. This is especially true once the "do you smoke cigars" accusations started flying around. It would be better to say that you understand the data and choose to go against CDC and FDA medical data in pursuit of your American freedoms than it is to attack a guy personally for his data and opinions, lest you want to be labeled a vaxflake.
I hope that the restaurant in Texas burns to the ground. What a fücking joke of a human being that owner is.
Why do I have to provide you or any statistical data to make a personal choice argument. I have provided data as to knowing 4 people that have died from rona and 2 were vaxxed. There is no statistical data to show why I have to get vaxxed to save someone else. If I have to get vaxxed to protect the vaxxed then why would anyone get vaxxed? And if its to protect others who aren't vaxxed then that was also their personal choice. Lastly, what the fùck anyone does with the vax or doesn't do with the vax is their own business. I'm not trying to argue for people to not get vaxxed. I absolutely encourage anyone who is high risk to get vaxxed. But don't come at me with some bullshìt that im selfish for not doing it.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
@VegasFrank said:
Wow, a lot has happened. Nobody is listening to each other...you all just continue to circle around the arguments, refusing to acknowledge each other's points of view. It's turned into useless bullshít.
@Rob1110 you have all the logic in the world like 1 in 86,000. It's all rock solid and irrefutable. What you don't acknowledge is that this isn't a logical issue for Nick and Wayne. It is derived completely of ethos and pathos. Ethos in that it's the American way to choose your own adventure, and pathos in that they have an emotional repulsion to capitulating to what the logic--delivered to them by politicians and media that they don't trust--tells them to do. The more data that mounts against the anti-vaxxers stance, the more they dig their heels in. That's how Infowars and the guardian came into existence.
@Usaf06 and @Wylaff, you give no validity to the factual, verified data that Rob presents, and it actually weakens your position because it makes you seem unreasonable--sort of like the AOC snowflakes that get lots of memes in the other thread--especially since there is no downside data to getting a vaccine. This is especially true once the "do you smoke cigars" accusations started flying around. It would be better to say that you understand the data and choose to go against CDC and FDA medical data in pursuit of your American freedoms than it is to attack a guy personally for his data and opinions, lest you want to be labeled a vaxflake.
I hope that the restaurant in Texas burns to the ground. What a fücking joke of a human being that owner is.
Why do I have to provide you or any statistical data to make a personal choice argument. I have provided data as to knowing 4 people that have died from rona and 2 were vaxxed. There is no statistical data to show why I have to get vaxxed to save someone else. If I have to get vaxxed to protect the vaxxed then why would anyone get vaxxed? And if its to protect others who aren't vaxxed then that was also their personal choice. Lastly, what the fùck anyone does with the vax or doesn't do with the vax is their own business. I'm not trying to argue for people to not get vaxxed. I absolutely encourage anyone who is high risk to get vaxxed. But don't come at me with some bullshìt that im selfish for not doing it.
Oh I think you misunderstood me or I didn't convey it effectively. I didn't say that you should provide data. Quite the opposite actually. There is no data to support an antivax argument. I said that it would be helpful to acknowledge that the data does actually support getting a vaccine, but you choose to go without because of your ethical and emotional (that's not a negative) viewpoints.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
When you say there is no data are you saying that no one has dies or had adverse affects from the vaccine. Cause I believe those stats were already previously reported. On top of that, people are still getting sick and dying with the vaccine.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
@Usaf06 said:
When you say there is no data are you saying that no one has dies or had adverse affects from the vaccine. Cause I believe those stats were already previously reported. On top of that, people are still getting sick and dying with the vaccine.
No, I am saying that there is no data to support a logic-based decision to abstain from a vaccine. Any anecdotal evidence, like "I know two guys who died and had a vaccine" is far, far outweighed by mountains of peer reviewed clinical research. "People still die" is literally a textbook example of the all or nothing fallacy, which I teach in my rhetoric lessons. "Do you even smoke cigars" is ad hominem. Shall I go on?
All I'm saying is that to be collaborative, you should accept Rob's data as accurate rather than dispute and substitute it with unverifiable anecdotes. You know 2 guys that died. I know 3 that lived. BFD. The research from professionals in the field is rather undisputable by those who deal purely in data.
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@Usaf06 said:
On top of that, people are still getting sick and dying with the vaccine.
One in eighty six thousand.
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There is data, you just dismiss it as outweighed by the positive stats. Either way idgaf. You do you, im gonna stay vax free.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
Today's despicable person: The owner of a Texas restaurant about 20 miles northeast of Dallas who threw out a young couple who were on a rare night out with friends.
Were they kicked out because they were drunk, unruly, or rude? Nope. They were shown the door because they had the audacity to wear masks.
That's right: The owner has a no-mask policy.
Each of the young parents wears a mask whenever they leave the house because their 4-month-old son has cystic fibrosis -- a serious disease of the lungs and digestive system. Their waitress didn't care. She closed out their tab and sent them on their way.
I'm actually opposite as a patron. If a store or restaurant tells me I need a mask I respect their wishes and turn around and leave. We have no mask mandates which im thankful for.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
As far as cogent arguments against getting the vaccine, I have yet to see one. Not saying it doesn't exist, anything's possible, but it certainly doesn't look like it from what we know now.
Your missing the whole point. Some people, a lot of people believe that a vaccine is not needed to battle a virus that A. Has an extremely low fatality rate and B. Natural immunity works far better. So it comes down to personal choice. Again I am not anti Vax or pro Vax. I am for personal freedoms and choice. I dont have to get a vaccine to protect the ones who are vaccined. If that was the case why the f*ck would anyone get the vaccine.
Honest question. We have been studying this form of the virus for a little over a year plus….. how do we know and where is the evidence to support the claim that natural immunity is better for “this” virus. We have vaccines for many many things (virus, disease, etc) that are much better then natural immunity. Where is the proof that in this case we are better off with out a vaccine?
So when people say “We haven’t studied the vaccine long enough, I’m not getting it” it’s totally different then when we use “we haven’t studied natural immunity long enough, but ehh good enough for me”?
Delta breaks through the vaccine to effect people who haven’t had Covid. If you have had Covid previously it is less likely to effect you. So why are so many people in the world discounting natural immunity? I’m not talking the buttons who have never been exposed but refuse to follow protocols. I’m talking upstanding citizens, who have had natural infection, quarantined to protect others, wear their masks when asked to, and follow all other rules. How did they get to be the bad guys by a group of people who are now being hit by a bad strain, because they successfully avoided the weaker ones earlier?
"Cooking isn't about struggling; It's about pleasure. It's like sǝx, with a wider variety of sauces."
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
@Amos_Umwhat said:
Well I'm convinced. 100% of the times that I have operated a vehicle with >1% b.a.c. I got home fine, no one was hurt, not even a fender bender. Obviously, I'll get a lot of support here in my bid to repeal all drunk-driving laws. It's my right to down a quart of Old Overcoat and drive at 90 mph through a school zone. Why so fast? Because I like it. It's my right.
What the heck, no matter what happens I won't kill even 1% of the school children in America. In fact, I'll bet that less than 1% of people driving were EVER killed by a drunk driver, and I freakin' feel like doing it. Aren't we told all the time that alcoholism is a disease? Just like Covid? Sure, it might be your Mom, or your kids that get run down, but WTF? Who gives a rip? We're all going to be dead in 100 years anyway.
And that, friends, is NOT a weak analogy.
And, it answers all your questions above, @Usaf06 .
Where did you get your old overcoat? I've been looking for that shine for 20 years.
Disclaimer: All trolling is provided for the sole entertainment purposes of the author only. Readers may find entertainment and hard core truths, but none are intended. Any resulting damaged feelings or arse chapping of the reader are the sole responsibility of the reader, to include, but not limited to: crying, anger, revenge pørn, and abandonment or deletion of ccom accounts. Offer void in Utah because Utah is terrible.
I only heard about it on the v-herf. It don't mean I'm gonna go back and read all this crap.
I'll give you cliff notes. Get vaccinated or your being selfish. You have to protect the vaccinated, they are an elite class. Also, all stats show vaccines are safe and working properly. Also, no stats show its not working, has zero side effects, and no one has died from it. I think that sums it up. Oh yeah, and fùck your freedom cause Amos could drive drunk and kill kids if he wanted to.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
I ask myself why do I bother? I like you guys. One is known by the company one keeps, after all, and I enjoy hanging out with y'all. When the subject is something I know nothing whatsoever about, say football or computer tech, I rely on your knowledge here. I have no opinions of my own on those subjects, because I have no knowledge.
The question here, however, well, I have a degree in health science. I do know what I'm talking about here, and I understand what's being said. And, then, in the face of irrefutable logic, well presented, undeniable to those who know, well, I don't have to tell you, it's all spelled out above.
Thank you @Rob1110 for providing excellent undeniable factual proof, thank you @VegasFrank for providing irrefutable logical analysis. It's wonderful to see that some of my brothers here actually understand the true nature of this thing. I tried analogy, and parable-like emotive reasoning, since that's what you guys listen to. But, I cannot open the eyes of the blind, or the ears of the deaf.
This has been like hearing people I respect suddenly begin insisting that the world IS in fact flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, the moon IS made of green cheese, mermaids sit on rocks in the ocean singing to lure sailors to their deaths, and whales do, in fact, speak French at the bottom of the sea. And, unlike the Flat Earth thread, you're not being facetious. It's not tongue-in-cheek humor. You guys really mean the nonsense you're spouting, and cling to it like religion. Astounding!
What's left to say except:
Harley Davidson.
If I have to explain it, you won't understand.
God bless you all. I had covid, before we knew that there was covid. I thought I just had the worst case of flu ever. I thought that all my spices had gone bad and lost their aroma. I couldn't walk to the end of the driveway without having to turn around because I was so short of breath. That's when that started, and I ended up with 5 bypasses, all the arteries in my heart. Did covid play a part? Maybe.
So, when the vaccine came out, I figured "I should already have natural immunity", an ace in the hole, as it were. And now, another pair of aces? Free? Hell yeah, sign me up, I don't want that sshhiitt again!
WARNING: The above post may contain thoughts or ideas known to the State of Caliphornia to cause seething rage, confusion, distemper, nausea, perspiration, sphincter release, or cranial implosion to persons who implicitly trust only one news source, or find themselves at either the left or right political extreme. Proceed at your own risk.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The are doctors, nurses, scientists and academics on the other side also who are not comfortable getting the vaccine. All we're saying is that this is a very 1-sided argument. The government and media are all standing one 1 side. It is impossible to find non-biased information. I'm not comfortable with the way things have turned out. And I think it's a harbinger for much worse abuses of power in the future.
"Never let a good crisis go to waste."
-Winston Churchill
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
We, as civilians, are not being presented with a complete picture. We are being given small pieces in an effort to keep us scared, and docile.
Vaccinated: Can still catch and spread Covid-19. Lessens symptoms, in many cases to none.
Unvaccinated: Can still catch and spread Covid-19. Deals with full gambit of symptoms.
Yes. Vaccinated individuals may spread Covid at a lesser rate than unvaccinated. BUT, if you are vaccinated, and you catch Covid, and you do not feel any symptoms, what is actually helping you protect those that can't be vaccinated? An unvaccinated individual may be more virulent when it comes to spreading, but they are also SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to know that they are sick and follow quarantine protocols.
The only thing really backed up by all the science so far is that you are less likely to have a sever reaction if you are vaccinated. Yes, the hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated individuals. But without doing personal contact tracing on each one, and testing everyone they have been in contact with, you are only speculating that the lack of the vaccine was the problem. There are a lot of assumptions that all of these people are getting sick, then choosing to hang out with each other, and causing new waves of infections. If you follow the logic, it is significantly more likely that these unvaccinated individuals are getting sick by vaccinated individuals who are spreading Covid without being aware, due to the lessening of symptoms.
There are absolute nutters on both sides of the issue, as with every issue. But as it stands, the vaccination should be a personal choice. Being vaccinated can be seen (from a different angle) as a very selfish action, as you are choosing to reduce your symptoms, and losing visibility of when you may be a danger to others.
Personal Experience: I have had Covid-19 twice. Verified with positive tests. I donate plasma, and spent the next 6 months after both of these being tested for antibodies. I am not speculating that I got Covid. Both times it sucked. I had a different range of symptoms both times. I got a promotion at work, and was required to be vaccinated. I had fairly severe reactions to both of the vaccination shots. They were short lived, but in both instances I was worse off after the vaccination than I was with Covid. I do not feel like this was a personal choice, and I do not feel like it was in the best interest of me, or those around me. It worries me that if I visit my Grandma I may be bringing her a virus that she has worked hard to avoid, and no longer even know that I am sick.
So, here is my argument. The vaccination as it stands is a severely flawed solution born out of fear. A fear that was deliberately incited repeatedly by the same people who are now saying we need to mandate the vaccination. We should be focusing our efforts on learning how to treat Covid-19. This is going to be endemic. For the rest of our lives Covid-19 with be mutating and circulating. We need to learn how to treat it effectively instead of constantly belittling each other over a preventative measure that does not work as a preventative measure.
"Cooking isn't about struggling; It's about pleasure. It's like sǝx, with a wider variety of sauces."
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
@Rob1110 you have all the logic in the world like 1 in 86,000. It's all rock solid and irrefutable. What you don't acknowledge is that this isn't a logical issue for Nick and Wayne. It is derived completely of ethos and pathos. Ethos in that it's the American way to choose your own adventure, and pathos in that they have an emotional repulsion to capitulating to what the logic--delivered to them by politicians and media that they don't trust--tells them to do. The more data that mounts against the anti-vaxxers stance, the more they dig their heels in. That's how Infowars and the guardian came into existence.
That's, by far the best rebuttal I've heard supporting the hesitation for vaccination....of course, made by a vaccine supporter. Thank you, Frank. The Ethos/Pathos/Logos reference actually helped quite a bit. Admittedly, that's also where my frustration lies (there's no way to approach the topic with any logic and without tempers flaring and emotions soaring) but I need to accept and understand that. Even if it means I'll never understand, it's not my place to understand. Until mandates exist, I have no say in the matter.
@Amos_Umwhat - I'm going to continue posting Coronavirus Information in the Coronavirus Information thread.
I'll do my best to make sure it's data-supported, evidence-backed, logical research and will endeavor to keep any emotion out of it. If someone wants to refute data with counter data, I'll respond in kind. If someone is going to refute scientific data with rhetoric and anecdotes, I'll let it go as ignored. Can't say that will resolve the tension here but at least I won't be feeding the emotional fire.
@silvermouse said:
But if you have natural immunity and get reexposed are you not just as likely to unknowingly spread the virus as you might if you are vacc'd?
The only real difference is that if you have natural immunity (not T-cell level, but active antibodies) being re-exposed is not likely to lead to a reinfection. Eventually active antibodies fade, and then you are relying on T-cells. In which point if you were re-exposed you would get sick, but your body would me more effecient at building those antibodies. If you are relying on the vaccine you have skipped the natural antibody phase. If you are exposed you're body is using the T-cell information to build the antibodies, but exposure is more likely to equal infection. hence the Delta variant is hitting the vaccinated (no natural immunity to date) community harder than those that have been previously exposed.
This also serves to highlight that in both cases, there is nothing that is actually preventing spread, which means we shouldn't be yelling at each other, or trying to force one faulty solution over another. We should collectively be focusing on treatment. There is a vast range of virus' that used to be considered deadly to humans prior to the invention of Tylenol and Dayquil. We will never be able to effectively vaccinate against a fast muting virus (No cure for the common cold, which is also a corona virus) but if our efforts were being spent on effective treatment we could significantly decrease the impact to humanity.
"Cooking isn't about struggling; It's about pleasure. It's like sǝx, with a wider variety of sauces."
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
Lets look at a different virus as an example. Chickenpox. We do have a functioning vaccine for chickenpox (Yes, I know that we can't use the same type of vaccine for coronavirus'). If you are infected as a child your body builds antibodies, that then become T-cells to help rebuild them in the future. In most people, this is sufficient for lifetime protection.
However, in some people when they are reintroduced to the herpes virus that caused chickenpox, their body does not properly rebuild the antibodies, and they get shingles. The chickenpox vaccination does cause antibodies, so there is functionally no difference in natural or vaccinated immunity.
if you have T-cells for Covid-19 due to natural infection, your body has built functional antibodies, and written down the directions to do it again. If you have T-cells from a vaccine, your body has not built any antibodies and is relying on written directions provided from an outside source.
Please do not forgot that in most cases the "anti-vaxxers" you are arguing with are people who have T-cells from natural infection. Not people who hid in a basement for 18 months and then decided to come out and start fighting with everyone.
"Cooking isn't about struggling; It's about pleasure. It's like sǝx, with a wider variety of sauces."
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
I ask myself why do I bother? I like you guys. One is known by the company one keeps, after all, and I enjoy hanging out with y'all. When the subject is something I know nothing whatsoever about, say football or computer tech, I rely on your knowledge here. I have no opinions of my own on those subjects, because I have no knowledge.
The question here, however, well, I have a degree in health science. I do know what I'm talking about here, and I understand what's being said. And, then, in the face of irrefutable logic, well presented, undeniable to those who know, well, I don't have to tell you, it's all spelled out above.
Thank you @Rob1110 for providing excellent undeniable factual proof, thank you @VegasFrank for providing irrefutable logical analysis. It's wonderful to see that some of my brothers here actually understand the true nature of this thing. I tried analogy, and parable-like emotive reasoning, since that's what you guys listen to. But, I cannot open the eyes of the blind, or the ears of the deaf.
This has been like hearing people I respect suddenly begin insisting that the world IS in fact flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, the moon IS made of green cheese, mermaids sit on rocks in the ocean singing to lure sailors to their deaths, and whales do, in fact, speak French at the bottom of the sea. And, unlike the Flat Earth thread, you're not being facetious. It's not tongue-in-cheek humor. You guys really mean the nonsense you're spouting, and cling to it like religion. Astounding!
What's left to say except:
Harley Davidson.
If I have to explain it, you won't understand.
God bless you all. I had covid, before we knew that there was covid. I thought I just had the worst case of flu ever. I thought that all my spices had gone bad and lost their aroma. I couldn't walk to the end of the driveway without having to turn around because I was so short of breath. That's when that started, and I ended up with 5 bypasses, all the arteries in my heart. Did covid play a part? Maybe.
I'm not sure what you think I'm spouting. I am only saying it is my personal choice based on my personal experience. I am not anti-vax. I have stated multiple times that I encourage people who are high risk or had bad covid experiences to get vaccinated.
There is nothing however, that this or any virus can do, to make me believe that we should force vaccines on anyone. Thats not how this country was founded. My wife is an RN and has worked covid patients since the beginning. She was never vaccinated and still isn't. She isn't alone. Most of the nurses at her job are not vaccinated. She works at the 2nd busiest women's hospital in the Country. So I applaud you guys for having passion, its just misguided.
"I drink a great deal. I sleep a little, and I smoke cigar after cigar. That is why I am in two-hundred-percent form." -- Winston Churchill "LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Comments
I know 4 people who have died from it. 2 were fully vaccinated. One that wasn't had major health issues before covid and was hospitalized when this first started pre-vaccine.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Maybe the problem is it isn't a true vaccine, but more along the lines of a flu shot. Only effective against a particular strain of virus, in which case we'll never not need yearly or perhaps semi yearly boosters.
Don't let the wife know what you spend on guns, ammo or cigars.
The owner does have the right to do that, but yeah I agree it was the wrong thing to do. We do things a little different down here in Texas.
Well I'm convinced. 100% of the times that I have operated a vehicle with >1% b.a.c. I got home fine, no one was hurt, not even a fender bender. Obviously, I'll get a lot of support here in my bid to repeal all drunk-driving laws. It's my right to down a quart of Old Overcoat and drive at 90 mph through a school zone. Why so fast? Because I like it. It's my right.
What the heck, no matter what happens I won't kill even 1% of the school children in America. In fact, I'll bet that less than 1% of people driving were EVER killed by a drunk driver, and I freakin' feel like doing it. Aren't we told all the time that alcoholism is a disease? Just like Covid? Sure, it might be your Mom, or your kids that get run down, but WTF? Who gives a rip? We're all going to be dead in 100 years anyway.
And that, friends, is NOT a weak analogy.
And, it answers all your questions above, @Usaf06 .
And @Rob1110 was here before I was.
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
Your citing laws that have nothing to do with a voluntary vaccine. Doesn't even apply. S0 you answered no questions of mine. And I never asked how long he's been here so don't really care about that either. I simply asked if he smokes cigars since I haven't seen a cigar related post. But thanks for nothing.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Wonder if they were vaxxed?
**** yes I know its satire. Don't get your panties in a wad ****
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Wow, a lot has happened. Nobody is listening to each other...you all just continue to circle around the arguments, refusing to acknowledge each other's points of view. It's turned into useless bullshít.
@Rob1110 you have all the logic in the world like 1 in 86,000. It's all rock solid and irrefutable. What you don't acknowledge is that this isn't a logical issue for Nick and Wayne. It is derived completely of ethos and pathos. Ethos in that it's the American way to choose your own adventure, and pathos in that they have an emotional repulsion to capitulating to what the logic--delivered to them by politicians and media that they don't trust--tells them to do. The more data that mounts against the anti-vaxxers stance, the more they dig their heels in. That's how Infowars and the guardian came into existence.
@Usaf06 and @Wylaff, you give no validity to the factual, verified data that Rob presents, and it actually weakens your position because it makes you seem unreasonable--sort of like the AOC snowflakes that get lots of memes in the other thread--especially since there is no downside data to getting a vaccine. This is especially true once the "do you smoke cigars" accusations started flying around. It would be better to say that you understand the data and choose to go against CDC and FDA medical data in pursuit of your American freedoms than it is to attack a guy personally for his data and opinions, lest you want to be labeled a vaxflake.
I hope that the restaurant in Texas burns to the ground. What a fücking joke of a human being that owner is.
Why do I have to provide you or any statistical data to make a personal choice argument. I have provided data as to knowing 4 people that have died from rona and 2 were vaxxed. There is no statistical data to show why I have to get vaxxed to save someone else. If I have to get vaxxed to protect the vaxxed then why would anyone get vaxxed? And if its to protect others who aren't vaxxed then that was also their personal choice. Lastly, what the fùck anyone does with the vax or doesn't do with the vax is their own business. I'm not trying to argue for people to not get vaxxed. I absolutely encourage anyone who is high risk to get vaxxed. But don't come at me with some bullshìt that im selfish for not doing it.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
Oh I think you misunderstood me or I didn't convey it effectively. I didn't say that you should provide data. Quite the opposite actually. There is no data to support an antivax argument. I said that it would be helpful to acknowledge that the data does actually support getting a vaccine, but you choose to go without because of your ethical and emotional (that's not a negative) viewpoints.
When you say there is no data are you saying that no one has dies or had adverse affects from the vaccine. Cause I believe those stats were already previously reported. On top of that, people are still getting sick and dying with the vaccine.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
No, I am saying that there is no data to support a logic-based decision to abstain from a vaccine. Any anecdotal evidence, like "I know two guys who died and had a vaccine" is far, far outweighed by mountains of peer reviewed clinical research. "People still die" is literally a textbook example of the all or nothing fallacy, which I teach in my rhetoric lessons. "Do you even smoke cigars" is ad hominem. Shall I go on?
All I'm saying is that to be collaborative, you should accept Rob's data as accurate rather than dispute and substitute it with unverifiable anecdotes. You know 2 guys that died. I know 3 that lived. BFD. The research from professionals in the field is rather undisputable by those who deal purely in data.
One in eighty six thousand.
There is data, you just dismiss it as outweighed by the positive stats. Either way idgaf. You do you, im gonna stay vax free.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
And there you have it...
That streak is ovah!
I'm actually opposite as a patron. If a store or restaurant tells me I need a mask I respect their wishes and turn around and leave. We have no mask mandates which im thankful for.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
So when people say “We haven’t studied the vaccine long enough, I’m not getting it” it’s totally different then when we use “we haven’t studied natural immunity long enough, but ehh good enough for me”?
Delta breaks through the vaccine to effect people who haven’t had Covid. If you have had Covid previously it is less likely to effect you. So why are so many people in the world discounting natural immunity? I’m not talking the buttons who have never been exposed but refuse to follow protocols. I’m talking upstanding citizens, who have had natural infection, quarantined to protect others, wear their masks when asked to, and follow all other rules. How did they get to be the bad guys by a group of people who are now being hit by a bad strain, because they successfully avoided the weaker ones earlier?
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
Where did you get your old overcoat? I've been looking for that shine for 20 years.
I only heard about it on the v-herf. It don't mean I'm gonna go back and read all this crap.
I'll give you cliff notes. Get vaccinated or your being selfish. You have to protect the vaccinated, they are an elite class. Also, all stats show vaccines are safe and working properly. Also, no stats show its not working, has zero side effects, and no one has died from it. I think that sums it up. Oh yeah, and fùck your freedom cause Amos could drive drunk and kill kids if he wanted to.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter
I have corona virus banners all over my house like football teams. I keep rooting it on.
This is the greatest purge ever, only about 35 million more to go.
"I ain't got no Opus's"
LLA - Lancero Lovers of America
2016 Gang War (South)
May I assss u a ?
Nick, @Usaf06 , you have great taste in cigars.
I ask myself why do I bother? I like you guys. One is known by the company one keeps, after all, and I enjoy hanging out with y'all. When the subject is something I know nothing whatsoever about, say football or computer tech, I rely on your knowledge here. I have no opinions of my own on those subjects, because I have no knowledge.
The question here, however, well, I have a degree in health science. I do know what I'm talking about here, and I understand what's being said. And, then, in the face of irrefutable logic, well presented, undeniable to those who know, well, I don't have to tell you, it's all spelled out above.
Thank you @Rob1110 for providing excellent undeniable factual proof, thank you @VegasFrank for providing irrefutable logical analysis. It's wonderful to see that some of my brothers here actually understand the true nature of this thing. I tried analogy, and parable-like emotive reasoning, since that's what you guys listen to. But, I cannot open the eyes of the blind, or the ears of the deaf.
This has been like hearing people I respect suddenly begin insisting that the world IS in fact flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, the moon IS made of green cheese, mermaids sit on rocks in the ocean singing to lure sailors to their deaths, and whales do, in fact, speak French at the bottom of the sea. And, unlike the Flat Earth thread, you're not being facetious. It's not tongue-in-cheek humor. You guys really mean the nonsense you're spouting, and cling to it like religion. Astounding!
What's left to say except:
Harley Davidson.
If I have to explain it, you won't understand.
God bless you all. I had covid, before we knew that there was covid. I thought I just had the worst case of flu ever. I thought that all my spices had gone bad and lost their aroma. I couldn't walk to the end of the driveway without having to turn around because I was so short of breath. That's when that started, and I ended up with 5 bypasses, all the arteries in my heart. Did covid play a part? Maybe.
So, when the vaccine came out, I figured "I should already have natural immunity", an ace in the hole, as it were. And now, another pair of aces? Free? Hell yeah, sign me up, I don't want that sshhiitt again!
"If you do not read the newspapers you're uninformed. If you do read the newspapers, you're misinformed." -- Mark Twain
The are doctors, nurses, scientists and academics on the other side also who are not comfortable getting the vaccine. All we're saying is that this is a very 1-sided argument. The government and media are all standing one 1 side. It is impossible to find non-biased information. I'm not comfortable with the way things have turned out. And I think it's a harbinger for much worse abuses of power in the future.
"Never let a good crisis go to waste."
-Winston Churchill
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
We, as civilians, are not being presented with a complete picture. We are being given small pieces in an effort to keep us scared, and docile.
Vaccinated: Can still catch and spread Covid-19. Lessens symptoms, in many cases to none.
Unvaccinated: Can still catch and spread Covid-19. Deals with full gambit of symptoms.
Yes. Vaccinated individuals may spread Covid at a lesser rate than unvaccinated. BUT, if you are vaccinated, and you catch Covid, and you do not feel any symptoms, what is actually helping you protect those that can't be vaccinated? An unvaccinated individual may be more virulent when it comes to spreading, but they are also SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to know that they are sick and follow quarantine protocols.
The only thing really backed up by all the science so far is that you are less likely to have a sever reaction if you are vaccinated. Yes, the hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated individuals. But without doing personal contact tracing on each one, and testing everyone they have been in contact with, you are only speculating that the lack of the vaccine was the problem. There are a lot of assumptions that all of these people are getting sick, then choosing to hang out with each other, and causing new waves of infections. If you follow the logic, it is significantly more likely that these unvaccinated individuals are getting sick by vaccinated individuals who are spreading Covid without being aware, due to the lessening of symptoms.
There are absolute nutters on both sides of the issue, as with every issue. But as it stands, the vaccination should be a personal choice. Being vaccinated can be seen (from a different angle) as a very selfish action, as you are choosing to reduce your symptoms, and losing visibility of when you may be a danger to others.
Personal Experience: I have had Covid-19 twice. Verified with positive tests. I donate plasma, and spent the next 6 months after both of these being tested for antibodies. I am not speculating that I got Covid. Both times it sucked. I had a different range of symptoms both times. I got a promotion at work, and was required to be vaccinated. I had fairly severe reactions to both of the vaccination shots. They were short lived, but in both instances I was worse off after the vaccination than I was with Covid. I do not feel like this was a personal choice, and I do not feel like it was in the best interest of me, or those around me. It worries me that if I visit my Grandma I may be bringing her a virus that she has worked hard to avoid, and no longer even know that I am sick.
So, here is my argument. The vaccination as it stands is a severely flawed solution born out of fear. A fear that was deliberately incited repeatedly by the same people who are now saying we need to mandate the vaccination. We should be focusing our efforts on learning how to treat Covid-19. This is going to be endemic. For the rest of our lives Covid-19 with be mutating and circulating. We need to learn how to treat it effectively instead of constantly belittling each other over a preventative measure that does not work as a preventative measure.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
That's, by far the best rebuttal I've heard supporting the hesitation for vaccination....of course, made by a vaccine supporter. Thank you, Frank. The Ethos/Pathos/Logos reference actually helped quite a bit. Admittedly, that's also where my frustration lies (there's no way to approach the topic with any logic and without tempers flaring and emotions soaring) but I need to accept and understand that. Even if it means I'll never understand, it's not my place to understand. Until mandates exist, I have no say in the matter.
@Amos_Umwhat - I'm going to continue posting Coronavirus Information in the Coronavirus Information thread.
I'll do my best to make sure it's data-supported, evidence-backed, logical research and will endeavor to keep any emotion out of it. If someone wants to refute data with counter data, I'll respond in kind. If someone is going to refute scientific data with rhetoric and anecdotes, I'll let it go as ignored. Can't say that will resolve the tension here but at least I won't be feeding the emotional fire.
But if you have natural immunity and get reexposed are you not just as likely to unknowingly spread the virus as you might if you are vacc'd?
The only real difference is that if you have natural immunity (not T-cell level, but active antibodies) being re-exposed is not likely to lead to a reinfection. Eventually active antibodies fade, and then you are relying on T-cells. In which point if you were re-exposed you would get sick, but your body would me more effecient at building those antibodies. If you are relying on the vaccine you have skipped the natural antibody phase. If you are exposed you're body is using the T-cell information to build the antibodies, but exposure is more likely to equal infection. hence the Delta variant is hitting the vaccinated (no natural immunity to date) community harder than those that have been previously exposed.
This also serves to highlight that in both cases, there is nothing that is actually preventing spread, which means we shouldn't be yelling at each other, or trying to force one faulty solution over another. We should collectively be focusing on treatment. There is a vast range of virus' that used to be considered deadly to humans prior to the invention of Tylenol and Dayquil. We will never be able to effectively vaccinate against a fast muting virus (No cure for the common cold, which is also a corona virus) but if our efforts were being spent on effective treatment we could significantly decrease the impact to humanity.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
Lets look at a different virus as an example. Chickenpox. We do have a functioning vaccine for chickenpox (Yes, I know that we can't use the same type of vaccine for coronavirus'). If you are infected as a child your body builds antibodies, that then become T-cells to help rebuild them in the future. In most people, this is sufficient for lifetime protection.
However, in some people when they are reintroduced to the herpes virus that caused chickenpox, their body does not properly rebuild the antibodies, and they get shingles. The chickenpox vaccination does cause antibodies, so there is functionally no difference in natural or vaccinated immunity.
if you have T-cells for Covid-19 due to natural infection, your body has built functional antibodies, and written down the directions to do it again. If you have T-cells from a vaccine, your body has not built any antibodies and is relying on written directions provided from an outside source.
Please do not forgot that in most cases the "anti-vaxxers" you are arguing with are people who have T-cells from natural infection. Not people who hid in a basement for 18 months and then decided to come out and start fighting with everyone.
At any given time the urge to sing "In The Jungle" is just a whim away... A whim away... A whim away...
I'm not sure what you think I'm spouting. I am only saying it is my personal choice based on my personal experience. I am not anti-vax. I have stated multiple times that I encourage people who are high risk or had bad covid experiences to get vaccinated.
There is nothing however, that this or any virus can do, to make me believe that we should force vaccines on anyone. Thats not how this country was founded. My wife is an RN and has worked covid patients since the beginning. She was never vaccinated and still isn't. She isn't alone. Most of the nurses at her job are not vaccinated. She works at the 2nd busiest women's hospital in the Country. So I applaud you guys for having passion, its just misguided.
-- Winston Churchill
"LET'S GO FRANCIS" Peter